Masters Results

[sparkling_quavers]

nah there are not out yet. Obviously everybody is in Cambridge because nobody has been on tMP!

4bars have published their opinions

4BR Unofficial Result:

1. YBS (1st, 1st, 2nd)
2. Fodens Richardson (2nd, 2nd, 1st)
3. Flowers (3rd, 5th, 4th)
4. Fairey (6th, 3rd, 3rd)
5. Travelsphere (4th, 6th, 7th)
6. Brighouse and Rastrick (8th, 4th, 5th)
Dark Horses Yorkshire Imps and Leyland

Official results from 9pm-ish (will probably be in the pub by then :shock: )
Lets hope you've all had a good day and done your bit in advertising tMP :D

So how close were the guys at 4bars and tMPers predictions??!

[jonford]

Here are the full results:

1. Leyland
2. Fodens
3. YBS
4. Brighouse & Rastrick
5. Flowers
6. Sellers International
7. Travelsphere
8. The Fairey Band
9. Yorkshire Imps Urquart Travel
10. Aveley and Newham
11. Besses o' th' Barn
12. Rothwell Temp
13. Redbridge
14. JAG Mount Charles
15. Ever Ready
16. Carlton Main
17. Ransome
18. Thoresby
19. Jaguar Coventry
20. Glossop Old
21. SWT Woodfalls

Well done to Leyland! what does everyone think of the results?

[the fish]

[b]Well done Leyland :!: :!:

How's the head Darth Tuba :?:

[Heather]

Yeah! Well Done Leyland!!!
Its nice to see their name at the top again!

[DaveK]

Well done Chris!!!!!

[jonford]

More interestin with the breakdown of points!

1. Leyland (2,3,5)
2. Fodens (1,8,2)
3. YBS (4,6,1)
4. Brighouse & Rastrick (6,2,6)
5. Flowers (10,4,3)
6. Sellers International (11,1,10)
7. Travelsphere (3,14,8 )
8. The Fairey Band (9,13,4)
9. Yorkshire Imps Urquart Travel (7,12,7)
10. Aveley and Newham (8,16,11)
11. Besses o' th' Barn (5,19,12)
12. Rothwell Temp (12,5,20)
13. Redbridge (15,10,14)
14. JAG Mount Charles (21,7,15)
15. Ever Ready (20,15,9)
16. Carlton Main (14,20,13)
17. Ransome (17,11,19)
18. Thoresby (13,17,18 )
19. Jaguar Coventry (19,9,21)
20. Glossop Old (16,21,16)
21. SWT Woodfalls (18,18,17)

(had to edit because it was putting 8) 8 ) for some bands!)

[sparkling_quavers]

wahey well done Chris...

some very interesting results on the breakdown though! :shock:

[Roger Thorne]

Congrats to Chris and Bren (and the rest of the Band) on a fantastic result - Well Done.

We'll expect you back from Cambridge about Thursday then!! :lol:

:guiness :guiness


:wink:

[Roger Thorne]

some very interesting results on the breakdown though! :shock:
Very Interesting. :?

The three adjudicators John Berryman, Eric Crees and David Read are all well respected gentlemen when it comes to adjudicating, but they were definitely singing off different song sheets yesterday. Firstly, I wasn't at the contest so don't shoot me down because I didn't hear any of the bands, but looking at the statistics John Berryman and David Read were very close with their markings and bands appear with two or three points of each other (which is what you would expect at this level) But Eric Crees placings of the bands is not in line with the other two. Is this because he was the tie-breaker judge? or simply looking for something completely different.
To use an example; John Berryman placed Sellers Band 11th. David Read placed them 10th. Eric Crees placed them 1st. At this level of banding how can you place so many points between bands if the adjudicators are all looking for the same details?
What would be interesting to know is whether the adjudicators commented at the draw as to what they were looking for or was there any mention from the stage before the results as to how they arrived at their respective results. I would expect results of this nature to be associated with, say the Spennymoor entertainments contest but a set work at Championship level it does make you think!

One theory I have is that Eric Crees must have been logged on to tMP all day and obvioulsy paid more attention to reading the posts on here than listening to the bands. :lol:

Anyway there's nothing like opening another 'can of worms' on a Bank Holiday Monday.

:wink:

[satchmo shaz]

yes I agree with you roger! strange is'nt it!
BTW who is eric crees...........I've never heard of him! :?:

[Roger Thorne]

Eric Crees - Biography:

Eric Crees was born in London & studied at Wandsworth School, where in the famous boy's choir, he worked with many distinguished professional orchestras & conductors. Of particular importance was the school's long association with Benjamin Britten, who wrote a solo part for Eric in the Children's Crusade.

While at school he was awarded a scholarship to study at the Guildhall School of Music & Drama, & as a student undertook an extensive period of work with the Philip Jones Brass Ensemble. Upon graduating from the University of Surrey, where he won the Mechanical Copyright Protection Society's 'Joyce Dixey Award' for composition, he joined the London Symphony Orchestra, where he spent twenty-seven years, twenty as Co-Principal Trombone. In September 2000, he was appointed Principal Trombone at The Royal Opera House, Covent Garden.

As conductor and arranger, Eric has directed the London Symphony Orchestra Brass for many years, & has worked with the world's most distinguished ensembles and brass bands in concerts, recordings and television and radio broadcasts. Eric's brass arrangements have received great acclaim and have been played worldwide. Many of these are present on the two albums recorded for Collins Classics, Amerloan Brass & Cathedral Brass with the LSO Brass, and the Cala Records albums The London Trombone Sound & The London Horn Sound. He has also made a new performing edition of the complete instrumental ensemble sonatas & canzonas of Giovani Gabrieli for a world premiere recording with the LSO Brass, for Naxos and Marco Polo Records.

Eric Crees is also an internationally renowned teacher & is Professor of Trombone and Conductor of Wind, Brass & Percussion at the Guildhall of Music & Drama. He is a frequent coach at music colleges & specialist schools both in the UK & abroad, including the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain, the Ulster Youth Orchestra and the Pacific Youth Orchestra in Japan. Many of his students now hold important orchestral & teaching positions throughout the world. In 1991, he was made a Fellow of the School.

Eric Crees is in great demand as a juror for international competitions, such as the Donatella Flick Conducting competition, the Leonard Berstein Conducting Competition, in Jerusalem, the Narbonne International Quintet Competition, the National Brass Championships, the European Brass Band Championships and the All England Masters Brass Band Championship.

:wink:

[satchmo shaz]

Eric Crees - Biography:

Eric Crees was born in London & studied at Wandsworth School, where in the famous boy's choir, he worked with many distinguished professional orchestras & conductors. Of particular importance was the school's long association with Benjamin Britten, who wrote a solo part for Eric in the Children's Crusade.

While at school he was awarded a scholarship to study at the Guildhall School of Music & Drama, & as a student undertook an extensive period of work with the Philip Jones Brass Ensemble. Upon graduating from the University of Surrey, where he won the Mechanical Copyright Protection Society's 'Joyce Dixey Award' for composition, he joined the London Symphony Orchestra, where he spent twenty-seven years, twenty as Co-Principal Trombone. In September 2000, he was appointed Principal Trombone at The Royal Opera House, Covent Garden.

As conductor and arranger, Eric has directed the London Symphony Orchestra Brass for many years, & has worked with the world's most distinguished ensembles and brass bands in concerts, recordings and television and radio broadcasts. Eric's brass arrangements have received great acclaim and have been played worldwide. Many of these are present on the two albums recorded for Collins Classics, Amerloan Brass & Cathedral Brass with the LSO Brass, and the Cala Records albums The London Trombone Sound & The London Horn Sound. He has also made a new performing edition of the complete instrumental ensemble sonatas & canzonas of Giovani Gabrieli for a world premiere recording with the LSO Brass, for Naxos and Marco Polo Records.

Eric Crees is also an internationally renowned teacher & is Professor of Trombone and Conductor of Wind, Brass & Percussion at the Guildhall of Music & Drama. He is a frequent coach at music colleges & specialist schools both in the UK & abroad, including the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain, the Ulster Youth Orchestra and the Pacific Youth Orchestra in Japan. Many of his students now hold important orchestral & teaching positions throughout the world. In 1991, he was made a Fellow of the School.

Eric Crees is in great demand as a juror for international competitions, such as the Donatella Flick Conducting competition, the Leonard Berstein Conducting Competition, in Jerusalem, the Narbonne International Quintet Competition, the National Brass Championships, the European Brass Band Championships and the All England Masters Brass Band Championship.

:wink: busy chap then!!....... i wondered if he had a different musical background to us brass banders :wink:

[IYOUNG]

For what its worth I listened to 15 yesterday and as most people in the hall, thought the usual suspects YBS and Fodens were streets ahead with Flowers, Leyland and Travelsphere behind. Faireys was very interesting and very well played but obviously not to the taste of the 3 adjudicators.
Besses to were a fascination for me loads of control from Mr Sykes and band I found that to my liking.

So I know the bands voted for it but what benefit is there in having 3 adjudicators when year after year one of them has a differing view / taste to the other two ? What is the point here ?

Also did anyone else find like I did the day the most muted atmosphere at a Masters for quite a few years ? where was everyone?

Oh and finally when will the organisors learn that us the punters want the contest, perhaps a 30 minute slot of entertainment ( as the result calculation here is obviously so complicated! ) followed by the result.

With the greatest respect to Sellers and Leyland who both tried very hard to entertain to a less than half full hall its not want we want.

Fine, if you want a Gala concert then have one, finish the contest at say 5.00pm ( 18 bands would have done yesterday ) results by 5.30pm then let the punters have some grub and return to the gala concert if they wish,

Sorry bit of a rant there !!!

Anyway congratulations to Leyland, great to see them back at the top again.

[IckleSop]

Well done Leyland!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aidan]

yeah well done to all the fp's at leylando :)

cheers for the comments iyoung, ste sykes is the boy!

the results are always dodgy at the masters as far as the opinions of adjudicators go.. always seems to be 2 and an oddball ;)
this year we got 5, 10 and 19, while last year we got 3, 11, 19 :)
i feel sorry for fodens :D gutted, same happened to ybs for last couple of years too.. getting like two 1sts and a 12th or something silly like that :D

[sudcornet]

Congrats Leyland....great effort. We've just got back and I'm shortly going for a kip as last night's supping contest was hard work....made even harder as someone forgot to put a bar in our hotel...duh!
I don't like griping about adjudicators, but, I tend to agree with the previous posts on this one. We had two sets of closely matched, positive remarks and one nit-picking slagging off. Still, that's contesting!
Sud.

[big_benthomson]

Get in there Leyland!

about time we had a decent result
congrats to fodens and ybs who jst missed out and everyone else who competed
The band was getting fairly annoyed with having to do the gala concert thing, a lot of standing about doing nothing, and no real drinking til about 10, but the day finished on a high for the band

cheers
Ben
Eb Bass - Leyland

[Darth_Tuba]

Hi everyone, just got back! Thanks for all the congrats everyone! I now have no voice after all the shouting on stage and a severe lack of sleep (due mostly to the beer and in part to the snoring of Mr. Warder our bass trom!). We couldn't have done it, obviously, without Garry Cutt... the man is class.

Well done to Fodens and YBS who on another day could easily have been top!

Right I'm off for some sleep!

P.S. If you want three adjudicators to think the same thing, why have three of them? :wink:

[Darth_Tuba]

Oh, by the way, nice picture Ben! :?

[Bones]

Hi everyone, just got back! Thanks for all the congrats everyone! I now have no voice after all the shouting on stage and a severe lack of sleep (due mostly to the beer and in part to the snoring of Mr. Warder our bass trom!). We couldn't have done it, obviously, without Garry Cutt... the man is class.

Well done to Fodens and YBS who on another day could easily have been top!

Right I'm off for some sleep!

P.S. If you want three adjudicators to think the same thing, why have three of them? :wink:

Hi Chris,

Well done to all at leyland and send my best wishes to Bren, I'm sure he was over the moon.

Cheers

Rich

[PeterBale]

We couldn't have done it, obviously, without Garry Cutt... the man is class.

P.S. If you want three adjudicators to think the same thing, why have three of them? :wink:

Pleased to see credit being given to Garry Cutt - seemed strange the other year to see Grimethorpe bringing in other conductors for the main contests when the band seemed much more comfortable under him at the concert the next day. Same with Fodens and Russell Gray.

Regarding the diversity of opinion betwee adjudicators, maybe it's a pity we can't adopt the skating system of having a number of judges and disregarding the top and bottom scores - could never happen, of course, due to cost and logistics, but it would an interesting exercise.

[yorkie19]

Firstly, congratulations to Leyland, and to Garry Cutt.

We got 2 7's and a 12, which was an interesting spread, but as Chris rightly points out, if we want the adjudicators to think the same thing........

Taking Peter's point for a minute, knocking out the top and bottom result would have produced an interesting result:

1 - Fodens
2 - Leyland
3 - Flowers
4 - YBS
5 - Brighouse
6 - Imps
7 - Travelsphere
8 - Faireys
9- Sellers
10 -Aveley

which wasn't a million miles away from the actual result. I have to confess that I like the way the Masters is adjudicated.

Anyway, I've just about woken up after a mammoth session on Sunday night (and after being drawn 19). I can recomend the kebab van in the Market Square, but not Sleeperz hotel by the station.

Sam

I really did see dead people on Sunday night!

[Nik_The_Insane]

well if nothing else the spread of the results from the adjudicators just proves how unpredictable contesting can be! (not that we didn't all know that anyway) but i must admit I would have thought they would at least have all been in the same ball park, i mean (10,4,3), (11,1,10) and (12,5,20) just seenm a little too far apart for this level really.


Still congerats to every1 especially Layland, well done!

[sudcornet]

Let's hear it for the Kebab van in the market square. I thoroughly enjoyed mine Sunday night...and was able to finish it Monday morning by scraping it off my jacket. (I'll get it clean again Wendy..promise)
Sud.

Re:- Sleeperz hotel...it was clean (at least before we got there) Nobody complained about 20 odd drunken bandsmen and women partying 'til God knows what time (some harder than others...but that's another story), and the stench in the morning after beer and said kebabs had been despatched would have fed a third world nation. All in all...could have been a lot worse.
Sud.

[yorkie19]

Re:- Sleeperz hotel...it was clean (at least before we got there) Nobody complained about 20 odd drunken bandsmen and women partying 'til God knows what time (some harder than others...but that's another story), and the stench in the morning after beer and said kebabs had been despatched would have fed a third world nation. All in all...could have been a lot worse.
Sud.

No-one complained because we pretty much booked it out. However, don't forget that the rooms were slightly larger than a Fiat Punto. I was going to keep the stories about Sunday night locked away until I come to write my autobiography. I'm just amazed I could get my contact lenses out before I went to sleep (at least, I hope I did)!!!!!

Sam

[strongbow]

The three adjudicators John Berryman, Eric Crees and David Read are all well respected gentlemen when it comes to adjudicating, but they were definitely singing off different song sheets yesterday. Firstly, I wasn't at the contest so don't shoot me down because I didn't hear any of the bands, but looking at the statistics John Berryman and David Read were very close with their markings and bands appear with two or three points of each other (which is what you would expect at this level) But Eric Crees placings of the bands is not in line with the other two. Is this because he was the tie-breaker judge? or simply looking for something completely different.
To use an example; John Berryman placed Sellers Band 11th. David Read placed them 10th. Eric Crees placed them 1st. At this level of banding how can you place so many points between bands if the adjudicators are all looking for the same details?
What would be interesting to know is whether the adjudicators commented at the draw as to what they were looking for or was there any mention from the stage before the results as to how they arrived at their respective results. I would expect results of this nature to be associated with, say the Spennymoor entertainments contest but a set work at Championship level it does make you think!

One theory I have is that Eric Crees must have been logged on to tMP all day and obvioulsy paid more attention to reading the posts on here than listening to the bands. :lol:

Anyway there's nothing like opening another 'can of worms' on a Bank Holiday Monday.

:wink:[/quote]

I would be interested to know which of the adjudicators sat where. My other half said that he couldn't hear the cornets clearly as he was off to the right (as you look out from the stage) and I wondered if this would be the same for the judges?

[Darth_Tuba]

Pleased to see credit being given to Garry Cutt - seemed strange the other year to see Grimethorpe bringing in other conductors for the main contests when the band seemed much more comfortable under him at the concert the next day. Same with Fodens and Russell Gray.


Don't say that! We don't want Grimey to start using Garry on contests because then we'd be stuck without him! :lol:

[Mrs Fruity]

Eric Crees was in the middle enclosure, because they had to come and ask him to switch his green light on before YBS played. I was sat in front of the box to the left of him and the overall band sound was quite clear there. Hope this helps!

[Aidan]

ben!! fp-in-training :D when did your ugly face surface on here?!?! well done on sun again (that should keep me on-topic ;)).. BrassNeck rehearsal nxt sat 4-6 or painfull death...
p.s. has mr. erder got another new supra..?!?! or was it a new paint-job/body kit or what..!??! rich ******! :D

[hellraiser]

Hello everyone, finally found this website. What a weekend !!!!!!! YEsssssssssss !!!!

[Keppler]

Welcome to tMP Rhodri - well done indeed

ps. say hullo to one of your members who has a daughter Leanne working in Dublin. Have forgotten her second name though :?

[TheMusicMan]

Hello everyone, finally found this website. What a weekend !!!!!!! YEsssssssssss !!!!

Well done on teh weekend Rhodri - and a BIG welcome to tMP.... hope you enjoy your time here :)

John

[Darth_Tuba]

In answer to your question Aidan, Mr Warder has got a new Supra. This one's a twin turbo one like the one he crashed, so it's better than the one he has had in the interim. It's also silver. The fact it's so fast makes him really hard to follow though when your relying on his GPS to get you to the rehearsal room! :lol:

[dyl]

Hello everyone, finally found this website. What a weekend !!!!!!! YEsssssssssss !!!!

Croeso Rhodri! ;)

[jimortality]

Rhodri!!!!! is that you of whitburn RET fame??

Jim Baritone (Nearly sorted with a band)

[Brassbones]

In answer to your question Aidan, Mr Warder has got a new Supra. This one's a twin turbo one like the one he crashed, so it's better than the one he has had in the interim. It's also silver. The fact it's so fast makes him really hard to follow though when your relying on his GPS to get you to the rehearsal room! :lol:

Smart silver car, smart silver trophy - its all good!! :D

Cheers to all the well wishers. When I joined this lot back in '99 I didnt think I'd have to wait this long to get my hands on a trophy, but it was worth the wait!! GETIN!

[hellraiser]

Thanks for the welcome, this is a good forum.

Neis gweld hogia Llanbabs yma Dylan! ;)

Jim, how are you? Yes I was up at Whitburn 2/3 years ago, time flies...

[Aidan]

ERDER! haha.. took you long enough to get on here mate!
dint see you on sunday.. (saw your exhaust pipe though...) p.s. No BEURGH there please...

this forum is starting to get very fp-infested!
10p to you all

long live the snowy white owl, and let her plumage hang low

[Brian]

The more judges you get ,the more confusing it gets...read the remarks for the top 6 on 4bars rest...they seem to have been listening to different bands...and Eric Crees, must have spent most of each performance looking at his metronome

[Brassbones]

Welcome to tMP Rhodri - well done indeed

ps. say hullo to one of your members who has a daughter Leanne working in Dublin. Have forgotten her second name though :?

Rhodri, thats Carol Bamber, our 2nd horn player!

[TUBAWAY ARMY]

Rumour has it that Eric Crees dropped his remarks and picked them up in the wrong order, the reason his positioning of bands was so adrift of the other two adjudicators?

[Brassbones]

Rumour has it that Eric Crees dropped his remarks and picked them up in the wrong order, the reason his positioning of bands was so adrift of the other two adjudicators?

I think you'll find Eric Crees gave credit to bands that followed the score, and in particular the metronome marks.

Phillip McCann has always been a great advocate of doing exactly what it says in the score, and not taking liberties with the composer’s intentions. No real surprise then that Eric Crees had Sellers 1st.

The “big boys” didn’t win this time – get over it!

[Keppler]

Welcome to tMP Rhodri - well done indeed

ps. say hullo to one of your members who has a daughter Leanne working in Dublin. Have forgotten her second name though :?

Rhodri, thats Carol Bamber, our 2nd horn player!

That's the one! Well hulloo Carol then.. I'll even tell Leanne, whenever I see her next...

[Darth_Tuba]

I would like to echo the sentiments of Mr Warder, and also point out that it was not always Eric Crees whose result was different from the others (not that I'm claiming this is a bad thing).

For example:
Leyland: We had fairly consistent results, with Crees and Berryman the closest.
YBS: 1st, 4th and 6th are an even spread, with the first from David Read the furthest away from the others (not that I'm saying he was wrong, just making a point! Incidently I heard from many that YBS were class on Sunday).
Flowers: A 10th from John Berryman is a far cry from Reads 3rd and Crees 4th.
Faireys: As with YBS, all three results are far away from each other, but yet again, the one actually furthest away from the others is David Read.

There are more examples of this further down the list, but you get the picture... in fact I'm sure its the fact that Fodens placings stand out as odd that has highlighted Eric Crees. I have been at both ends of this system, having last year had 4th, 8th and 15th, and I have happily excepted these results... we all know the system before we go to the contest!

I'm so glad that people in bands like Faireys, Fodens, YBS etc. have been wishing us well, as we would to them had they won. Pity some other people have to ruin it with sly comments, which won't change the results anyway!

[Curious]

I spent a few minutes with 3 or 4 members of the Fairey band reading the spread results sheet. To their credit they were adamant that everyone was aware of the adjudicating format and therefore accepted the result with good grace.

[Brassbones]

I spent a few minutes with 3 or 4 members of the Fairey band reading the spread results sheet. To their credit they were adamant that everyone was aware of the adjudicating format and therefore accepted the result with good grace.

Yes, they did, and umpteen of em came over to congratulate us!! Good set of lads :)

At the same contest two years back they lent us their band bus to get into Cambridge after ours had broken down!!

[iggmeister]

...it was not always Eric Crees whose result was different from the others

I think you are spot on. I like the way the Masters is adjudicated and as has already been said we all know the score before we enter.

People say that 'you cant please everybody' and that is the whole point of this adjudicating system- you have to try to do the impossible. You may please 2 adjudicators, but if the third didn't like it then tough.

Congrats on your result. It just goes to show that you really did please them all and that is all that counts!

Igg

[Brassbones]

...it was not always Eric Crees whose result was different from the others

I think you are spot on. I like the way the Masters is adjudicated and as has already been said we all know the score before we enter.

People say that 'you cant please everybody' and that is the whole point of this adjudicating system- you have to try to do the impossible. You may please 2 adjudicators, but if the third didn't like it then tough.

Congrats on your result. It just goes to show that you really did please them all and that is all that counts!

Igg

Cheers Igg! Did I notice one of your lot on our victory photo?! Lol!

[hellraiser]

Some very good points have been made in this discussion.

It was great to see 4barsrest print out the official adjudicators comments. However I feel by doing this 4barsrest have exposed their own comments as being a bit amateurish!! From the official comments one can see that adjudicating a major contest like the masters requires a great deal of skill, experience and preparation. I doubt that the 4barsrest team can claim to be in the same league as the three adjudicators on those grounds surely (or they would have been in the box themselves? ;) )

The criticism I have is that they never reveal who makes those comments. Until they do, then I can't attach any credibility to their remarks whatsoever. Also, let's remember that the 4barsrest team (as far as I'm aware (!)) are not wearing any blindfolds when the bands are playing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of 4barsrest generally but I just think the anonymous running commentary is lacking in credibility.

They got the bass trombone comment spot on though didn't they Warder? :D

[Phil Green]

I believe that 4BarsRest do a fabulous job at these contests. During the day they publish what they, normal, common or garden bandsmen, think about the performances they've heard. They try to do this with honesty and in this instance add a little humour. Yes, they are aware that they're not pro. adjudicators and that the comments that they make will have no bearing on the result. However, you and I can tell a good band/performance from a (relatively) poor one. All they do is pass comments on what they hear. For many who can't get to the contests this is almost as good as being there.
As for their results this time, I don't think they were far off the mark with what most people in the hall thought. Not to take anything at all from your victory, most people had two different bands some way above all the others. As it was the adjudicators looked for something different (in certain cases) to the audience and therefore the aggregate results put Leyland first.
I have no problem with this at all, it's all part of the magic (?) of contesting.
Therefore I don't think that 4BR looked amateurish in the slightest. They just comment on and publish what they hear. As for who "they are", does it matter? I'm sure that they were picked because that some semblence of knowledge about banding/music. If you did know would it make any difference? :?
As for skill and preparation, if the band that had won had been placed 7th, 7th, 7th, and I don't know if that's mathematically possible, how much skill and preperation on the adjudicators part would have got that band 1st prize? This year at least one of the adjudicators was looking for something different to the other too (in general), so how well prepared were they as a team? :?
But don't let that detract from a great win for Leyland Band.
Let's treat 4BR as what it is. A well run, informative site that tries to add a little something to the contest day by offering it's opinion - we don't have to read it! :)

Phil.

[hellraiser]

Phil, let me pick you up on a few points:

If 4barsrest are publishing what normal bandsmen think in the contest hall then fine, interesting as it may be for a number of reasons I think this gives an inaccurate reflection of the bands performances.

For example, your average audience member will not have seen the score or may not have heard the piece before. A well known band could come on stage and play really tight with the biggest sound of the day which would get the average bandsman excited I'm sure... and they'd get a big cheer... but they wouldn't be able to verify if the interpretation was correct or if all the details or tempos were accurate. That's one reason it's vital to have professional adjudicators in the box who have the skill, experience and credibility to judge a performance in its entirety. I can't think of a worse way to judge a contest than by a clapometer.

4barsrest is a smashing website, the unrivalled coverage at contests is very interesting and gives it that extra buzz. However, there is a danger that unsigned comments on a popular website could begin to undermine the professional verdict from the box.

In fairness, they have published the adjudicators' full remarks alongside their own so that people can make up their own minds which I think is very good.

[McChambo]

The 4barsrest performance comments made during the day of the big contests are there simply so people can access the information and see how their favourite/least favourite bands have played. I find it interesting and i'm sure others like to read it, even if it is slightly going to differ from the real adjudication. It's always good to hear another persons opinion anyway.

Good to see your still playing with a top band Rhodri. Congrats on your victory!!

[neiltwist]

to be honest, I don't think that 4barsrest is supposed to be a definative guide to a competition, it is just another view.

and what is the criteria to win a competition? to stick closest to the score? from what i've heard, surely sellers should have won?

It is my view that the best musical performance should be the winner. I have played pieces being conducted by the composer for the premiere, and then have payed the same piece under a different conductor, and both performing it, and listening (by an external independent source) to it were much more satisfying.

[iggmeister]

Cheers Igg! Did I notice one of your lot on our victory photo?! Lol!

Yep. He was actually depping for us cos we had a player with bad illness. That was his first ever time at one of the 'Majors' and he had a few too many to celebrate that fact. He was delighted he got in the photo, but not so on the return to Cornwall at 5:30am!

Just picking up on other comments made, I like 4barsrest's predictions. It doesn't matter that they are right, wrong, uneducated, srcastic or whatever- we all look at them! If they really have so little credibility why get so worked up about them! I know after the Grand Shield quite a few comments were banded about with respect to Carlton Main's performance. I would quote from that great philosopher, Umpire Dickie Bird when he gave a batsman out. The batsman said, "that was never out" to which Dickie replied "You just check the back page of the paper tomorrow!".

Besides, 4barsrest were criticised the other day for changing their minds in the retrospective reports so as to match the adjudicator(s). People were shouting then atht they should have stuck to their live reports. I vote we give them a break!

Igg

[jimortality]

Here here, I agree with Igg!!!! I thought the analysis of the bands performances from 4Bars Rest was excellent and very funny, especially about the horses, moats and in between the sheets.

Jim Baritone (Nearly got a band)

[jonford]

Although the 4barsrest comments were very cheesy! I enjoyed reading them, it at least gave some indication of how they thought the bands had played before the actual results were announced. Surely websites like this are available for other mediums making predictions before an event/contest and its about time that brass bands moved with the times in which 4barsrest is doing succesfuly.

[NEILSAMUEL]

As a new member to this site i dont want to upset anyone but... everyone is very adament that 4barsrest provide the very best coverage... will someone please tell me why a percussionist from Rainford Silver was adament that he was a 4barsrest rep. in writing reports to me after the reports :? i dont have anything against Rainford of course but... surely the people who review different bands should be aware of the different bands standard.
I know as a Leyland player people will see this as a biased mail... belive you me... its not. If i didnt think the band deserved the win then i wouldnt feel so strong about this subject. Its been along time coming.

Neil
Solo Trom.
Leyland

[jimortality]

I'm not too sure I follow what you're trying to say Neil, but maybe you should contact 4 Bars rest and ask them about who does their reporting at contests.

Jim Baritone

[NEILSAMUEL]

Im just saying that a perc. player from Rainford Silver (3rd section) was telling me how he had been in the hall for the day reviewing bands... now if im wrong then im wrong... but... please will you conceed that it would be better to know who has done the reports so that no one will raise any questions. Afterall... im only replying to a previous message on the information ive been give.

Neil

[NEILSAMUEL]

Sorry i keep thinkkin of things to say after ive finished...

The Masters is always a strange result as has been said. But, we enter it each year with the same faith... Faireys didnt win (who my cousin plays for), Fodens didnt win (who some of my best friends play for), what is everyones problem? Leyland won... fair and square.

[Laura]

:?

[jimortality]

Looks like I'm missing something here Neil, Leyland won, well done, I still don't follow what you're trying to say. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, your band won, end of story. When I was at Ransomes and we came 2nd at Nationals 2000, people were saying stuff about us but you just have to ignore it, you are Masters Champions 2003 end of story.

Jim B

ps If I'm still missing the point, then apologies.

[NEILSAMUEL]

Laura... I can spell ya know. Just tired :P we all know you are the thick one out of us both :wink: he he. Anyway... when are we goin out again? Get back to me... Neil.

[NEILSAMUEL]

Jim.. youve just hit the nail on the head. Thanks... I have to be honest... your message helps alot as every bit of credit helps. All I am saying is that 4barsrest 'adjudicators' shouldnt be judging top section bands if they just look for names in a programme. Before I played in a top section band that is all I did (when i was 14), but its wrong. If the site wants to be professional then why doesnt it have people who review contests on bands merits? Not clapometer?

[neiltwist]

from what i've read of this topic do far, it seams that everyone except leyland players seem to like 4barsrest! But I do think that there is a reason for this:

Neil, Darth t, Warder, etc., when people are saying 4barsrest is good, that's what they mean, they like a view from a non-professional, to compliment the results etc. as much as anything else. The percussionist in Rainford Silver, why does it matter who he is? I know him personally, and take offence that you rubbish him because of the section of the band he plays for. Do you think that it's possible that he does know the difference between a championship section band and a 3rd section band? And do you think that was his first 'adjudication' session as you put it?

4barsrest isn't there to replace the adjudicators, and nobody said that they felt that the result was wrong! At the end of the day, it's another opinion, but it doesn't count. The writers stick their neck out, and give an order that is their opinion. They are not adjudicators.

I think you'll find that everyone, including other bands etc, has congratulated Leyland; keep up the good work. But for god's sake, don't moan just because not everyone agrees with the result.

[rach marriott]

Jim.. youve just hit the nail on the head. Thanks... I have to be honest... your message helps alot as every bit of credit helps. All I am saying is that 4barsrest 'adjudicators' shouldnt be judging top section bands if they just look for names in a programme. Before I played in a top section band that is all I did (when i was 14), but its wrong. If the site wants to be professional then why doesnt it have people who review contests on bands merits? Not clapometer?

I agree with your comment here... we may not be one of the "named" bands, but we embraced the challenge of the Masters and the band as a whole felt that we had not disgraced ourselves on stage.

[rach marriott]

I'd also like to say "Well done" to Leyland. We followed you on stage, thus could hear your performance whilst we were waiting. Tough one to follow...

Congratulations!

[Curious]

As a new member to this site i dont want to upset anyone but... everyone is very adament that 4barsrest provide the very best coverage... will someone please tell me why a percussionist from Rainford Silver was adament that he was a 4barsrest rep. in writing reports to me after the reports :? i dont have anything against Rainford of course but... surely the people who review different bands should be aware of the different bands standard.
I know as a Leyland player people will see this as a biased mail... belive you me... its not. If i didnt think the band deserved the win then i wouldnt feel so strong about this subject. Its been along time coming.

Neil
Solo Trom.
Leyland

It's disappointing that you had to resort to this unintelligent elitiste comment. You might be surprised to learn that the lower sections are full of supremly talented musicians more than caperble of commenting on 12 to 17 minutes of brass band music! :shock:

[Brassbones]

from what i've read of this topic do far, it seams that everyone except leyland players seem to like 4barsrest! But I do think that there is a reason for this:

Neil, Darth t, Warder, etc., when people are saying 4barsrest is good, that's what they mean, they like a view from a non-professional, to compliment the results etc. as much as anything else. The percussionist in Rainford Silver, why does it matter who he is? I know him personally, and take offence that you rubbish him because of the section of the band he plays for. Do you think that it's possible that he does know the difference between a championship section band and a 3rd section band? And do you think that was his first 'adjudication' session as you put it?

4barsrest isn't there to replace the adjudicators, and nobody said that they felt that the result was wrong! At the end of the day, it's another opinion, but it doesn't count. The writers stick their neck out, and give an order that is their opinion. They are not adjudicators.

I think you'll find that everyone, including other bands etc, has congratulated Leyland; keep up the good work. But for god's sake, don't moan just because not everyone agrees with the result.

Excuse me, I don’t recall criticising 4BR at all!!!!

I don't agree with their verdict on our performance, but so what!? At least they are prepared to stick their necks out and give an opinion, unlike our beloved band press.

Having said that an awful lot of people judge with their eyes not their ears at contests. As a well know former Black Dyke friend of mine once told me - During the mid to late 80's all we had to do to win the contest was throw the jackets on the stage!!!

Tongue in cheek, obviously, but you get the point! :wink:

[Phil Green]

Hi Neil, nice to see you on here.
I don't think anyone is critisising the result, at least I've not read that on this forum. Yes, Leyland won, fair and square and I don't think that there's a bandman anywhere but particularly in the NW who isn't pleased that the band have had some success after the hard time you've had of late.
With regard to 3rd section players passing opinions on us, all I'd say is that as I've moved through the sections, and I've played in all 4 of the old ones, I've met some fabulous musicians who, for one reason or another, don't want to play in a top band even though they're more than able to.

See you at the Open.

Phil.

[hellraiser]

The 4barsrest performance comments made during the day of the big contests are there simply so people can access the information and see how their favourite/least favourite bands have played. I find it interesting and i'm sure others like to read it, even if it is slightly going to differ from the real adjudication. It's always good to hear another persons opinion anyway.

Good to see your still playing with a top band Rhodri. Congrats on your victory!!

Cheers Jim! I hear you're still doing a terrific job on flugel up there, see you at the open!

[big_benthomson]

Following warder's comments, I dont think there's any harm in 4barsrest doing what they do, but they arent the real results no matter how people feel, plus people shouldnt take it so seriously either, its only banding, not the end of the world or anything...

[big_benthomson]

to young nadia...
tell me, whats with all the LFP-ing?
i think you'll find its more commonly known as the BOTBFP's

FP

[neiltwist]

Excuse me, I don’t recall criticising 4BR at all!!!!

doh! sorry paul. :oops:

[Brassbones]

doh! sorry paul. :oops:

No probs mate!! :)

[Darth_Tuba]

I don't think I critised them at all either! I think the job they do is an excellent one, and they have a lot of nerve to go out there and post their opions for all to see before the results. They put a lot of work in for little reward. Their give their own opinions as bandsmen and the general opinions they get from the hall. As happens in life, opinions differ. Sometimes I agree whole-heartedly with their decisions and sometimes not, but I always respect the fact that they have given one! I hope we can lay this one to rest now. Hope everyone has a nice summer 8) , and best of luck to all in the Open!

[neiltwist]

I don't think I critised them at all either!

flamin hell! sorry! :oops:

I bet it was just Neil S that said anything wasn't it!


sorry again.

[Darth_Tuba]

Yup, I think it was... and he'd had too many at last nights party after band! :lol:

[hellraiser]

Wouldn't this be an interesting result... ;-)

Band J1 J2 J3 Tot
A 1 11 21 33
B 2 12 19 33
C 3 13 17 33
D 4 14 15 33
E 5 15 13 33
F 6 16 11 33
G 7 17 9 33
H 8 18 7 33
I 9 19 5 33
J 10 20 3 33
K 11 21 1 33
L 12 1 20 33
M 13 2 18 33
N 14 3 16 33
O 15 4 14 33
P 16 5 12 33
Q 17 6 10 33
R 18 7 8 33
S 19 8 6 33
T 20 9 4 33
U 21 10 2 33

[PeterBale]

Wouldn't this be an interesting result... ;-)

Band J1 J2 J3 Tot
A 1 11 21 33
B 2 12 19 33
C 3 13 17 33
D 4 14 15 33

etc


Would all come down to the opinion of the tie-break judge, wouldn't it?

[hellraiser]

Would all come down to the opinion of the tie-break judge, wouldn't it?

I presume so - in effect this contest would be decided by one judge after all!

[Brassbones]

Rodders!!! You need to get out more! :P

[Aidan]

hahah ello rhodders :)

i nominate this post for boc of the month

[hellraiser]

Rodders!!! You need to get out more! :P

Haha! Excel Solver canes 8)

[Aidan]

from what i've read of this topic do far, it seams that everyone except leyland players seem to like 4barsrest! But I do think that there is a reason for this:

they never said they didnt... :shock: thats slander... :P


The percussionist in Rainford Silver, why does it matter who he is? I know him personally, and take offence that you rubbish him because of the section of the band he plays for. Do you think that it's possible that he does know the difference between a championship section band and a 3rd section band? And do you think that was his first 'adjudication' session as you put it?

4barsrest isn't there to replace the adjudicators...

Maybe not for the playing bandsmen themselves...
But for the public they are definately a replacement for the adjudicators.. the public dont get to see the adjudicators comments for most bands that played.. and so will look the 4br.. The point some of the leyland players were making (quite rightly, im with them on this one for a change), was that why have an unqualified (by this i mean not a member of an official adjudicators assosciation etc..) making remarks on a very widely available medium... 4br is there only to provide an "alternate" adjudication, giving bandsmen and the public the oppurtunity to argue over results... simple as!!
Imagine if joe bloggs off a street corner was picked to adjudicate the open...

Let the battle commence ;) ...

[NAS]

Firstly can I just deny all knowledge of last nights postings!!!! :x I have been meaning to register as a member for some time after previous attempts failed(look on the members list how many accounts I have and cant get into!!!!!), but last nights mail has prompted me to get round to it.

1.) I do not have a problem with whoever 4barsrest appoint to review the contest because at the end of the day... I dont have to agree with their opinion. Life would be dull if we all thought the same.

2.) I did not wish this to become public knowledge but... I am actually auditioning for the vacant conductors post at Rainford band so if you think about it, me saying what was said last night would be extremely stupid if I really wanted the job wouldnt it?!?!?!?!

3.) Whoever made the posting last night obviously knows me well to be as confident as he appeared to be in what he was saying.

4.) I intend getting in touch with the site admin. to ask them to remove 'NEILSAMUEL' as there is only room for one of us :wink:

5.) If anything is posted 'from me' without this username being attached then could you please tackle me about it before accusing me. You can reach me at...

neilsamuel22@lycos.co.uk

6.) Yes I was drunk last night but unfortunately didnt make it to the internet as my head was hung over the toilet basin :oops:

7.) Lastly just to defend myself(although I shouldnt have to). People who know me will automatically realise that I was not behind that posting. I have nothing against 4barsrest (as I think they do a magnificent job!), and certainly not against Rainford Silver as that would just be stupid wouldnt it? :?

I do alot of work conducting lower section bands and to do such a job successfully you have to have respect for the musicians you work with. I do... so I hope this satisfies those people who think I would be so narrow minded to leave such a posting.

Regards,
(THE) Neil Samuel.

[neiltwist]

The percussionist in Rainford Silver, why does it matter who he is? I know him personally, and take offence that you rubbish him because of the section of the band he plays for. Do you think that it's possible that he does know the difference between a championship section band and a 3rd section band? And do you think that was his first 'adjudication' session as you put it?

4barsrest isn't there to replace the adjudicators...

Maybe not for the playing bandsmen themselves...
But for the public they are definately a replacement for the adjudicators.. the public dont get to see the adjudicators comments for most bands that played.. and so will look the 4br.. The point some of the leyland players were making (quite rightly, im with them on this one for a change), was that why have an unqualified (by this i mean not a member of an official adjudicators assosciation etc..) making remarks on a very widely available medium... 4br is there only to provide an "alternate" adjudication, giving bandsmen and the public the oppurtunity to argue over results... simple as!!
Imagine if joe bloggs off a street corner was picked to adjudicate the open...

Let the battle commence ;) ...

No, they are not replacements! what they say isn't related in any way to the result, therefore they cannot be said to be adjudicators!

The reason 4br is so useful (in my opinion), is because the commentators aren't being paid, and they are doing what they do because of their love of banding!

And Neil, don't worry about it, but when we saw 'NEILSAMUEL' as the username, I guess we all assumed it had to be you. sorry.

[NAS]

No worries Neil. :)

[neiltwist]

from what i've read of this topic do far, it seams that everyone except leyland players seem to like 4barsrest! But I do think that there is a reason for this:

they never said they didnt... :shock: thats slander... :P


well, technically, I didn't say what it looks like, because of the use of the word 'seam', instead of 'seem'! but i've already appologised. sorry. :oops:

[Aidan]

hehe i was only pullin your leg anyway ;)

I still think that they are replacements as far as the publicised comments go anyway...
As people who dont go and watch the contest can get the gist of how a band played, without having to phone up Mr Crees (for eg ;)) and ask :)

[Sueee]

blimey! this thread has certainly got interesting hasn't it??

firstly, can I say well done to Leyland :) but that is to my friends in the band in particular, Warder, Ben, Chris n Neil who deserve it the most!

But guys, the way u have all gone on you'd have thought you'd have lost! If I was u I wouldn't care whatever anyone else thought!

I think 4barsrest.com is a good site to look at, n it's fun to c what predictions and comments they give cos it's only their opinions like the adjudicator's in the box!

At one time, I would be alot more bothered bout contests but nowadays I cant really be ***** cos what will be will be! n it's only bandin' at the end of the day!

:wink:

[Aidan]

ayeeez... its your hobby so enjoy it... :D
if you cant take a joke, dont do contests ;)

[Laura]

:?

[Darth_Tuba]

Hmmmm.... if you had seen us Sunday night/Monday morning you wouldn't think we had lost sue! ;) Don't worry, we are all well chuffed with the win and will be celebrating til the next one comes along in about 10 years or so!

Well, it would appear we have someone who is trying to cause trouble by pretending to be Neil! Most odd! Just shows you not to trust a username... for all you know this may not even be me! :S

PS will the real Neil please stand up?

[jimortality]

So, after all that, which one really is the real Neil Samuel?? Is it Neil Samuel or NAS?? or is it Sam Neil or SAN, in fact I'll talk to anyone, cos I'm that kinda guy.

Jim B (nearly sorted)

[Laura]

:?

[jonford]

As a new member to this site i dont want to upset anyone but... everyone is very adament that 4barsrest provide the very best coverage... will someone please tell me why a percussionist from Rainford Silver was adament that he was a 4barsrest rep. in writing reports to me after the reports :? i dont have anything against Rainford of course but... surely the people who review different bands should be aware of the different bands standard.I know as a Leyland player people will see this as a biased mail... belive you me... its not. If i didnt think the band deserved the win then i wouldnt feel so strong about this subject. Its been along time coming.

Neil
Solo Trom.
Leyland

Its clearly obvious who you are talking about here, and just because they play in a 3rd section band, it doesnt mean they have a 3rd section ear. In my opinion 4barsrest is just a website! sometimes serious sometimes not but it is only an opinion. Just like another adjudicator. You will agree with there results if you do well, but if not you may thing they are a bad adjudicator! I dont see what the problem is though seen as you won!! lol

[neiltwist]

NAS is neil samuel, the other one was a fraudster!

[Sueee]

Hmmmm.... if you had seen us Sunday night/Monday morning you wouldn't think we had lost sue! ;) Don't worry, we are all well chuffed with the win and will be celebrating til the next one comes along in about 10 years or so!

Well, it would appear we have someone who is trying to cause trouble by pretending to be Neil! Most odd! Just shows you not to trust a username... for all you know this may not even be me! :S

PS will the real Neil please stand up?

good i'm glad for u honey :D did u go to Gary Cutt's party last night?? bet u all were celebratin then-getin! :wink:

we had trouble like this on delphi once dya rem? when ppl got someones password n started insultin members n causin trouble?

[jonford]

NAS is neil samuel, the other one was a fraudster!

ooops, I didnt realise it was a fraudster, and maybe my earlier comments were a bit harsh! But I'd had a few :guiness when I wrote the earlier message. Its a bit pathetic though if someone is prettending to be Neil Samuel! Have they nothing better to do!!

[sudcornet]

Wow....is Neil the first on tMP to have a stalker? Scary!
Sud.

PS. Could the real Neil Samuel please stand up... only he could know the answer to this question....Depping for a band at a concert in Dudley recently, what was the other ensemble that shared the stage?

[NAS]

Lol... Good question Sud!!!! If I remember rightly it was Rhos Male voice choir :? It was deffo a male voice choir and we finished with Eric Crees's West Side Story :D .



Neil

[Brassbones]

did u go to Gary Cutt's party last night?? bet u all were celebratin then-getin! :wink:

Oh yes!!! Gary's local just doesn't close! I feel like *bleep*!!!

Be warned - Winning contests is bad for your liver!! :shock:

[Laura]

:shock: Please tell me that was a joke! Actually, leave it.

p.s I have only just seen your big letter saying it wasn't you

[sudcornet]

NAS is the real deal...so ignore imitations. Congrats Neil...you win the quiz. I was going to ask about your superbly tailored stage jacket too...haha.
Had to be you with such a fine and distinguished set of initials.
BTW are you up for Easingwold....a little bird told me you might be interested....well a big bird actually...ok, a bloke....with a goatee....anyway....can you do it?
Sud.

PS. Sorry to hijack the thread.

[NAS]

Easingwold... Absolutely!!!! Sounds like a giggle :D Count me in.

Neil

[big_benthomson]

alright sue?! fancy seein you here
i should have been goin to gary's but cos im a lift-stealer, all the old folk wernt goin so no lift. :( but im sure after we complete the treble :shock: (seeing as were the only band with a chance of the treble) there will be no stopping anybody

[neiltwist]

leyland seem to be developing a presence!

[Sueee]

alright sue?! fancy seein you here
i should have been goin to gary's but cos im a lift-stealer, all the old folk wernt goin so no lift. :( but im sure after we complete the treble :shock: (seeing as were the only band with a chance of the treble) there will be no stopping anybody

ah yeah, well ya never know eh :wink: (btw, took me a while to know whatcha mean't by 'the treble' but ya mean the Open n Nationals? I'm presumin? what bout Spennymoor aswell though :wink: ?

awww shame ya couldn't get to Gary's eh?! nevermind though, i'm sure you'll make up for it some other time! *remembers the state u were in at the Shield!* :guiness

oh btw (sorry to go off topic) but.... how did u find the Music exam yesterday :?:

Sue

[picju96]

oh btw (sorry to go off topic) but.... how did u find the Music exam yesterday :?:

Sue [/color]

did u do edexcel? I thought the last question on the listening was horrible. Sorry mods :oops:

[Sueee]

oh btw (sorry to go off topic) but.... how did u find the Music exam yesterday :?:

Sue [/color]

did u do edexcel? I thought the last question on the listening was horrible. Sorry mods :oops:

nope we do OCR, wasn't too bad apart from the essay question I thought, but think that was prob cos I couldnt remember much :shock: lol

Sue :lol:

[jonford]

oh btw (sorry to go off topic) but.... how did u find the Music exam yesterday :?:

Sue [/color]

did u do edexcel? I thought the last question on the listening was horrible. Sorry mods :oops:

nope we do OCR, wasn't too bad apart from the essay question I thought, but think that was prob cos I couldnt remember much :shock: lol

Sue :lol:

Yeh I dont think I did too well on the essay question! But it was only 25 marks out of 100 i think?!

[jonford]

btw I made a new thread for this sort of thing in random

http://www.themouthpiece.com/viewtopic.php?t=1458

cos we have gone off topic a bit!!

[Roger Thorne]

Thank you jonford.

Moderator in Training. :oops:



:wink:

[Sueee]

Yeh I dont think I did too well on the essay question! But it was only 25 marks out of 100 i think?!


ONLY????????? :? :shock: it's a quarter! :cry: god help me lol

[yorkie19]

NAS is neil samuel, the other one was a fraudster!

ooops, I didnt realise it was a fraudster, and maybe my earlier comments were a bit harsh! But I'd had a few :guiness when I wrote the earlier message. Its a bit pathetic though if someone is prettending to be Neil Samuel! Have they nothing better to do!!

It might be a first on here, but I can remember one or two occassions on the old Delphi site when people signed up pretending to be someone else. Personally speaking, I'd rather it didn't rear it's ugly head here, as I'm sure almost all of us are.

I'm not even sure that NAS is Neil Samuel, because I don't think he can use a computer!

Sam

[Aidan]

haha .. i know he can use a computer.. he's on msn 24 hours a day

[rach marriott]

I'm not even sure that NAS is Neil Samuel, because I don't think he can use a computer!

Sam

Oi!!! Meanie! he he!