Why Bach?!

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Chat' started by kate_the_horn, Nov 25, 2004.

  1. kate_the_horn

    kate_the_horn New Member

    im confused!

    bach produce cornet and trumpet mouthpieces/instruments

    but in the time of bach, there were no such things?!

    (well really basic cornettes)
    where is the link there?!

    cashing in on the bach name?!

    kk xx
  2. ComposerAndy

    ComposerAndy Member

    What?! Of Course Bach had trumpets, they've been about since Egypt's 18th dynasty.

    Bach accounts for much of the earliest virtuoso trumpet repertoire, (Brandenburg 2 being just one fine example) and so the use of his name is justified, if it really needs to be.

    And cornetts are made of wood.
  3. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    Should we tell kate_the_horn that it was Vincent, and not Johann who designed the mouthpiece, then trumpet?

  4. trumpetmike

    trumpetmike Active Member

    Vincent Bach - trumpet virtuoso and instrument maker.

    Johann Sebastian Bach - Greatest composer that ever lived (just my opinion)

    There are a large number of other Bachs in music, many of them related to J.S. - it was a very big family, many of whom went into music.

    The way that Bach (the instrument maker) "cashed in" wasn't in the use of his own name, but in the use of the name of the violin maker Stradivarius, which bach then used for the top end products of his company.

    FYI - The trumpets of J.S. Bach's time were a very different beast to those we know now - no valves! Go and listen to his Brandenburg Concerto No.2 and then imagine trying to play the whole of that with just your lips! If you think "easy" get yourself a copy of the part, put down 1st and 3rd valves (on a Bb cornet) and you can play the whole thing - it is still regarded as one of the most difficult pieces in the orchestral prepertoire, even with the modern trumpet (and piccolo trumpet especially).

    One thing you need to be very careful about is the spelling, when referring to cornets;

    Cornet - Bb instrument, mainstay of the brass band world.

    Cornett / cornetto - renaissance instrument, imagine a long recorder, with a slight bend in it, with a trumpet-style cup mouthpiece. They were the virtuoso instruments of their day. There are players around today who play these instruments at the highest level. If you are interested, do a search for Jeremy West. Simply incredible playing.
  5. MattB

    MattB Member

    And why is the Ski Sunday tune called Pop Looks Bach? Or am I missing something?
  6. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    ... and we must not forget the use of the slide trumpet in J.S. Bach's day! The use of recorders in the Brandenburg Concertos are my favourite use of the 'usual trumpet' parts. :p
  7. ComposerAndy

    ComposerAndy Member

    What's that?
  8. PeterBale

    PeterBale Moderator Staff Member

    You do, as Mike says, have to watch the spelling, but should also bear in mind that the different spellings are a relatively modern convention to draw a distinction between the two, and that many early sources will be found using the "cornet" spelling for the earlier instrument ;)
    As for the various Bachs, you forget the best of them all: PDQ Bach ;)
  9. Dave Payn

    Dave Payn Active Member

    Indeed, Vincent Bach's real surname was Schrotenbach. Easy to see why he shortened it....

    Having once tried to play a cornett, the one thing I remember is how far apart the fingerholes are! But as trumpetmike says, Jeremy West is a true virtuoso on that instrument. (And I also agree with him regarding JS Bach being the greatest composer! ;-))

    Pop Looks Bach, by Sam Fonteyn, basically a 'pop'py number based on motifs from Toccata and Fugue in D Minor (now thought to be NOT originally from the hand of JSB anyway!)
  10. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

  11. Nuke

    Nuke Active Member

    your definately missing something
  12. Dave Payn

    Dave Payn Active Member

    And keeping with Bach but going a little off topic, and as it's APPROACHING Christmas (just being cautious there, Roger! :)) there's a double DVD out of Bach's Christmas Oratorio recorded in the Herdekirche, Weimar, with John Eliot Gardiner and the English Baroque Soloists, Monteverdi Choir and vocal soloists. A fine performance all round and a couple of informative mini documentaries to boot, but, for brass enthusiasts, the natural trumpet playing (particularly the lead - alas he's not given a credit and I don't know who he is) is top notch (even if today's 'natural trumpets' have fingerholes and the like which the originals didn't have - anyway, they're still difficult to play as I have regularly found out to my cost!)
  13. Dave Payn

    Dave Payn Active Member

    So then, Mike; what's your favourite 'period' recording of Brandenburg 2, trumpet wise? Old though it is, I still marvel at the genius that is Michael Laird with the English Concert/Pinnock. Maybe not the most accurate but to my ears, musically, the most rounded performance (which goes for the rest of the ensemble too)
  14. kate_the_horn

    kate_the_horn New Member

    i was very tired and got VERY confused!
    it will never happen again!!

    k xx
  15. Despot

    Despot Member

    Yes to cashing in, Vincent certainly hasn't objected to the name association with J.S.!
    Brass has been around at least 2000 years, but technology didn't exist to make GOOD brass instruments until relatively recently. Whereas, for example, they've been making good violins for a good few hundred years.

    Cornet requires a lot of modern engineering.

    Violin is glorfied tennis racket.
  16. trumpetmike

    trumpetmike Active Member

    You are a horn player - yes it will;)

    As for my preferred Brandenburg - I have yet to decide. Just when I have decided upon one, I get another version (I reckon I have about 20 recordings of this piece). My current favourites include Crispian Steele-Perkins (not a recording, have heard him live - in a lesson with him - simply beautiful playing), Mark Bennett (very subtle playing - beautiful balance between the soloists) and the Akademie fur Alte Music Berlin - Friedemann Immer on trumpet.
  17. HBB

    HBB Active Member

    Watch it... :shock::x:rolleyes::biggrin:
  18. ComposerAndy

    ComposerAndy Member

    Crispian Steele-Perkins is in the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment's recording of the complete six and it's great.
  19. bigmamabadger

    bigmamabadger Active Member

    Horn players only appear stupid in order not to shame the rest of the band by their witty repartee...
  20. Mrs Fruity

    Mrs Fruity Member

    No- it's in order to avoid any call to do something musically clever....

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