What on earth is the world coming to...

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Chat' started by TheMusicMan, Jun 2, 2005.

  1. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

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  3. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    ... quite shocking! :eek:
     
  4. its been all over the local and national news and its flippin disgustin!

    do these kids who arent even teenagers yet realize that they are gonna be known as attempted murderers?!?!?!

    surely they dont want that title, or are they so psychotic that they actually wanna be murderers?!?!?!

    which ever way you look at it, its sick!

    and these kids will get away with it coz they are only kids!
     
  5. Naomi McFadyen

    Naomi McFadyen New Member

    blimey.... words are hard to find when u read things like that.
     
  6. lets just hope that these kids are not involved with brass bands, that wouldnt go down very well would it

    glad to hear the kid is actually back with his family with just injuries that will recover in time
     
  7. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    But what on earth was a 5yr old doing in woodland...? Was he with the culprits who were supposed to be looking after him or was he on hs own?? what on earth.... where were the parents??
     
  8. mikelyons

    mikelyons Supporting Member

    I don't know why you are all so shocked.

    The parents of these children are from a more selfish generation than any other. The parents do not know or care (generally) what their children are up to, providing they are out of their way.

    I think you will find that the children are largely out of their parents' control, because the parents themselves have few real parenting skills and can't be bothered to make the effort. These days "no" means "...well, maybe if you keep pestering me I'll give in."

    I also think you will find that there will be an increase in these incidents as more and more children of this age give in to their baser instincts because they have not been taught any form of restraint or self control.

    This kind of thing is the result of being too 'soft' on children. They don't learn what the boundaries are because every time they push at a boundary, instead of standing firm, someone moves the boundary further away. They have also learned that there is no real or meaningful punishment for misdemeanours. Our society is not prepared to punish. You can expect a whole raft of people to come up with excuses for this behaviour because we are no longer a society that deals with consequences and our children no longer associate cause and effect. We see it all the time in schools and we are powerless. The only sanction we have is to give them an extra or extended holiday.

    By the time children like this arrive in secondary school they are, by and large, already lost. I am afraid that it's the do-gooders and excuse makers that are responsible for this situation. These people forget that children do not reason instinctively, they work on instinct. They have to be taught to reason. If you do not teach a child that action A will always result in consequence B, the child will not learn. It will instinctively try to 'get round' some obstruction to its desires - including its parents. Wheedling is an obvious example. Parents no longer seem able to exercise the control needed to keep their children in check.

    We are reaping what we have sown.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2005
  9. Will the Sec

    Will the Sec Active Member

    According to the radio report this morning, the child was abducted from the "safety" of his back garden - the mother raised the alarm as soon as he was missed - within minutes - so it may be harsh to condemn this parent as shirking her responsibility.
     
  10. bigmamabadger

    bigmamabadger Active Member

    I read what you say Mike, and I agree with all of it. However, I was shocked by this incident, although possibly not surprised. So long as people are still shocked by things like this then they may be some hope. Children are naturally callous little beasties, understanding of people and social skills have to be programed into them at an early age. Sometimes by the time a child gets to 12 or so, it's too late. That other people can be hurt is something that needs to be learned at kindergarten.

    These things have always happened, but there seems to be a more malicious air about now. Whereas before it might happen more in a spirit of curiousity, now it seems to be pre-meditated hurt.

    BMB
    xx
     
  11. akwarose

    akwarose Active Member

    i'm shocked. for once words have actually failed me. that is a truly sick thing to read about, more for the fact it was carried out by kids than anything else.
     
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  13. andyp

    andyp Active Member

    I agree totally with mikelyons, if parents don't control their kids from a very early age they become "feral" ie like animals. I see kids of 5,6,7 out on their own or in groups all the time, this has to stop. Problem is you're on the 3rd or 4th generation of this, so the parents have no role models to pick up on, and it gets worse. Unpalatable as it may be if the parents can't (or more likely won't) control them then the State will have to step in for the good of society as a whole. And that doesn't mean sending the litttle darlings on free trips to Africa, either.
    I can see pressure for the age of criminal responsibilty to be lowered very soon, perhaps down to 10 or less.
     
  14. sterlingsop

    sterlingsop Member

    This has chilling echoes of Jamie Bulger, and I for one am sickened that these 11 and 12 year olds think that what they did is acceptable behaviour.

    I agree with Mike Lyons too that by this age, disciplining (sp) children is practically impossible because they have not been taught basic right from wrong from an early age. I sit on school disciplinary panels for children at risk or at the point of permanent exclusion for a variety of offences, and the theme throughout them all seems to be that the parents have either given up on their child, or were never bothered to discipline them in the first place. By the age of 14 or 15 some children unfortunately are so hardened and disaffected they could literally kill each other without qualms. It is very very frightening, and it is rare for a child of this age to "see the light" and start to behave normally.

    There's a saying isn't there that goes something like "give me the child til he's 7 and I'll give you the man"? I never understood it until my work took me where it has and til I had my own children, but it is a very true statement.
     
  15. yonhee

    yonhee Active Member

    It so doesn't :( And maybe still means no.
    (your back :D )
    I dont see how 11/12 year olds could do that I wouldnt be able to live with myself knowing that i could have killed somone.

    I think that if theyre in groups then its not so bad maybe 5 an 6 is a bit young and it depends where they are i guess. My little brother goes and plays with his friends without an adult although theyre only allowed in certain places.
     
  16. sparkling_quavers

    sparkling_quavers Active Member

    I agree with the comments - morales are taught at a very early age. Although, I not believe all children are off the rails. I also teach and I see some fantastic young people who have so much potential and positive skills to offer society. BUT, it is the sad reality that many young kids are brought up without being TAUGHT the difference between right or wrong. It's not something that is known instinctively - instincts are to survive (and breed!)
     
  17. andyp

    andyp Active Member

    But that's exactly the problem. You (along with most right-thinking people) have a conscience, because your parents taught you right and wrong. These kids and many like them don't have one. The problem is a lot of the wishy washy liberal elite think that you can teach conscience to a 16 -year old (probably by sending them on an African safari at taxpayer's expense). You can't. It's too late by then. It probably isn't their fault they've turned out like they have, but society needs protecting from them, and if that means locking them up for the greater good, then that's what needs doing, whether we like it or not.
    The "age seven" thing is a Jewish saying, I think, something like "Give me the boy till the age of seven, and i will give you the man". Very true.
     
  18. yonhee

    yonhee Active Member

    What does it mean?
     
  19. mikelyons

    mikelyons Supporting Member

    I would never condemn all people of this age group. We have some lovely young people on here, for example, who have acquired a basic understanding of right and wrong, however, it is sad but true that they are in a minority.

    I am in the unenviable position of working in the same school for 16 years. I have seen how the overall standard of behaviour has declined (in this school) over that time - and it seems to be accelerating. Some of our pupils were recently involved in a murder, and while that has happened before, these particular children have backgrounds that you would think might preclude them being involved in such a thing.

    my front, my sides....;)

    It's an old saying that the things that influence how we turn out as adults are the things that influence us very early in our lives. And it is true. Another one is "spare the rod and spoil the child". I think we're witnessing the results of this attitude now.
     
  20. sevenhelz

    sevenhelz Active Member

    it's only a matter of time before somebody suggests training courses for new parents... or perhaps right and wrong could be put on the nursery syllabus?
    no one really knows how to change this do they? that's the scary part.
    xx
     
  21. yonhee

    yonhee Active Member

    Or even better make them have classes before they have childen.
    I learnt it when i was at playgroup which is the same thing i guess cause i never went to nursery.

    Which is not true.
    The bald patch on the back of your head :tongue:
     
  22. Will the Sec

    Will the Sec Active Member

    Quote: (Originally Posted on tMP by yonhee)
    What does it [give me the child til he's 7 and I'll give you the man] mean?

    It's actually a saying from the Jesuits, which given their association with the Catholic Church and its troubled times with child abuse, gives the phrase a sinister ring.

    [998]
     

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