Weston-Super-Mare: tMP v's Official Adjudicators: a comparative analysis

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by TheMusicMan, May 22, 2006.

  1. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    Weston-Super-Mare: tMP v's Official Adjudicators: a comparative analysis

    Yes yes yes... I know that on the day only one set actually counts and matters, but I thought I'd post a nice comparison of the two sets of results obtained from listening to ALL of the bands at the recent WSM Own Choice contest. Some interesting results here, some are the same, most are not - perhaps I should stick to Project Management eh!

    What do you think...? was it worth it...? should we do this again...?

    WSM 4th Section

    WSM 3rd Section

    WSM 2nd Section

    WSM 1st / Champ combined

  2. Di

    Di Active Member

    Definitely! :biggrin:

    A couple spot on, a few little discrepancies with the official judges there, but hey, they had the benefit of scores to work from. ;)
  3. meandmycornet

    meandmycornet Active Member

    Well :tongue: you were slightly out with us (tut tut!) but your ajudication of ours was really lovely.... and I liked it.... and I'm sorry you didn't get the score.... thats Dave's fault! I gave it him to take to you but somehow he forgot! I'll do it myself next time!

    Thank you and Well Done, You both did a terrific job.... and I really think your amazing for sitting through EVERY SINGLE performance, not many could do that! I bet you didn't get many wee breaks either did you? :tongue:

    Definately do it again though! Its nice to see what other people think of our performance!

    Thank you John and Di
  4. Andybassbone

    Andybassbone Member

    Please do it again...Nice to see this good contest get some coverage, and thanks to Lisa for getting some pre-contest info on.

    Glad you liked Gillingham - you got that bit right anyway:)

    As to your comments on my Bass trombone playing - thanks!!
  5. QAD

    QAD Member

    Another opinion is always helpfull. Thanks for sitting through that.
    Perhaps is just practice - you did seem to get closer through the day - maybe a bit too generous to start off.
    Thanks for your nice comments about my sop work with Forest Brass. ;)
    Please do this again.
  6. Aardvark

    Aardvark Member

    Great idea - how about visiting the south and coming to the SCABA Folkestone contest in October.......come on, it'll be fun :clap:
  7. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    Who knows where you'll see me making an appearance...!! If it is a popular enough contest, and I can get the assistance off the contest controller or owners of the hall re internet access etc, then I am willing to go anywhere I am wanted...:)
  8. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    You're welcome Huw.

    I will fully admit to not being anywhere near as qualified or as experienced in the adjudication dept as Messers Lippeat and Sykes, and course we could all do with more practice, but I am sure it's not just more practice per sé that I need. My ears are as good as anyones, and this is what I said I would report on, and is what I reported on.

    I stand by my comments 100% even if they differ greatly from the adjudicators. So, I'd say the fact that in places the results differ so much is a combination of:
    (1) my not having scores to read from or to comment on
    (2) the subjective nature of music and judging it
    (3) my lack of experience as an adjudicator
    Even if you put two other experienced adjudicators in an alternate box, furnished them with the same tools et al, and asked them to adjudicate on what they heard... I am sure the comparative analysis would be similar.

    i.e. different people... different results. It will happen all the time.

    There were a few performances where it was easy to pick the winning (and losing - sorry!!) bands but differentiating between others is entirely subjective.
  9. PeterBale

    PeterBale Moderator Staff Member

    It is also worth saying that the criteria being used were outlined beforehand and available for everyone to see, which is not the case with the official adjudicators, where more stress could have been placed on splits etc.
  10. starperformer

    starperformer Member

    i think you need to have the scores to do it properly, even if you don't prepare them, otherwise it is no different to sitting in the audience saying "oooh i like that one, look at those nice little red uniforms" or "oooh this is one of my favourites i played this back in '84". i think it would be very difficult to get any correlation of results without knowing what parts are meant to be going in where.

    without this you will never be able to criticise without risk of just being completely wrong, and i see that all of the reports you made remain (by necessity) completely on the side of positive/wishy-washy comments. as a result, people will enjoy reading the comments about their band, why shouldn't they, but it is no different to positioning yourself at the stage exit slapping everyone on the back and telling them they were great.

    real adjudicators will always be far harsher, and they can afford to be because they have a copy of the score that they have prepared so they know what they are looking for. harsher = more useful.
  11. Andybassbone

    Andybassbone Member

    Bet you are fun to be with in the bar! Lighten up - i thought this was supposed to be fun......
  12. QAD

    QAD Member

    Cheers John,

    I agree, adjudication is purley subjective but I was only joking about the practice thing - more feedback can only be a positive in any contest and I am delighted that you took you're whole Sunday to do this :clap: .
    I'm convinced that an adjudicators perceptions change throughout the section, which makes judging massive sections like the 26 bands in the regionals almost impossible.

    Did you find that you were shifting you perceptions on bands performances throughout each section? Did the standard against which you were measuring in your mind change as each band played? I think mine would have.

    I was suprised that you put Bream 4th and Stan put us four points ahead, but then I'm biased....;)

    By the way did you notice that your members ranking thingy is a little broken, it appears to include a first voting member with ratings of zero, bringing the whole ratings down - try it on one that hasn't been rated yet.
  13. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    ooOOOooh starperformer we are on form eh.. haha... I knew I'd be opening myself up for some scathing criticism by doing these live reports. I love it.

    However, I must add that;
    • contrary to your suggestion, none of my reports took into account the quality or the colour of any banding attire worn on the day
    • none of my reports took into account any of my favourite pieces, or any pieces I played on or around 1984
    • there's nothing wrong with providing pragmatic, positive, encouraging comments, or any form of additional critique
    • I did score the bands - some very highly and some rather poorly - not all wishy/washy as you put it - there's a % score/mark for every band that played from 10:00 through to 20:00
    • the guidelines for my reviews were posted beforehand and clearly stated I would not be referring to placemarkings or specifics on the score - just basing my review and rating on what I heard... the music.
    So, in response to your rather obtuse comments starperformer... those were my opinions, and therefore cannot be wrong as opinions are just that - opinions. My ears are just as good as anyones.
  14. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    To be totally honest, no. I tried to comment on each band as if I hadn't heard any bands previous to them. This was a lot easier given it was an own choice contest, though I imagine this would have been far more difficult to do if it were the same piece played by all the bands in a section. Then I am sure I would have done what you elude to.

    Well.. that is only 3 places away so wasn't too bad eh...???!!! ;)

    Yes I have been informed of this. I believe it to be a bug in the add-on review system that I have already reported to the coders of that add-on.
  15. starperformer

    starperformer Member

    sorry, didn't mean to be over-critical, and i didn't mean to make out that you were judging on presentation or whatever, but
    * any inexperienced adjudicator will have some real trouble comparing performances of pieces they know with ones they don't - this is why it is essential to have a score.
    * positive comments are all very well, but are completely ignored by bands apart from to feed delusionals who feel they were somehow cheated out of a win by abstract interpretational considerations. a good band will try to improve on the constructive negatives. positive comments can only harm that process (by introducing complacency).

    it seems to me that a lot of people who attend contests simply want to be told they are good by somebody. if the adjudicator won't do it, they'll ask their mates, and if their mates won't do it, they will keep whining about it until someone shuts them up by saying they should have won.

    of course you are entitled to your opinions - but as certain other website-administrator-turned-amateur-adjudicator-and-journalists have found, when you publish those opinions as some sort of reportage on a contest, it becomes something slightly more than "just an opinion". this is not a bad thing, unless you bend to public opinion and try to please everyone.
  16. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member


    I take your points - apart from just the one. Let me try to re-phrase your comments in a manner I feel would be fair and much more reflective of my actual circumstances than the way you put it...

  17. starperformer

    starperformer Member

    why, was the original comment inaccurate or misleading in some way?
  18. PeterBale

    PeterBale Moderator Staff Member

    I reckon it was more than a little misleading, as it omitted referring to the playing experience that gives much more credence to the views expressed than if the prime qualification was "website administrator".
  19. starperformer

    starperformer Member

    there are thousands of similarly qualified people out there, each with their own opinions on contest performances, which are all interesting and valid, i'm sure. this isn't in question, from me at least.

    however, i don't think that any amount of playing or conducting experience would lead to one's opinions on such performances finding their way to the top of the front page of a website like this, described as 'reports' and implicitly endorsed by the site as such, even with certain caveats in place. on the other hand, running a brass band website appears nowadays to lead almost inevitably to this conclusion - and this site is not the first to go down that road as i'm sure you are aware.
  20. GingerMaestro

    GingerMaestro Active Member

    Can I just say

    I read the remarks from both the bands I played with on the day and if I am perfectly honest I thought you guys did a cracking job.

    Considering you didn't have the scores for most of the bands and you are not qualified to the effect of the likes of Mr Sykes and Mr Lippeatt your rekars were both constructive and accurate and I think it would be a great shame if this was the first and last time it was done

    WELL DONE:clap:

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