Weighting of Regional Sections

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by cockaigne, Feb 2, 2013.

  1. cockaigne

    cockaigne Member

    Sorry for the clunky thread title. Just been musing on the entries of bands being announced for those regions which have declared so far.

    Here on tMP, we have heard rumblings from the West (oo-err - or oo-aar?) that the moving of more bands up from section 4 to section 3 is a soft-touch/dumbing down of the contest. Yet there were nearly 30 bands in last year's WoE 4th section, arguably too large a section to be of much benefit in the long term to bands who consistenly come mid-field.

    On the other hand, the posting on 4BR announcing the entry for the North of England shows a fairly standard ten bands in the Championship, yet just five each in Section 1 and Section 2.

    Whilst we're already gazing navelwards in the light of the registry upheaval, do we need to look at a better balance across the sections in each region? This could be of benefit to bands who feel stuck in an unwieldy 4th section, or who feel at constant risk of dropping out of a disproportionately large top section. Maybe a bit of an upset in the short-term, but better prospects for stability and/or progress, such as may be desired, in the longer term.

    I'll crunch some numbers shortly - hopefully to illustrate these points more directly. Your thoughts, ladies and gentlemen?
     
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  3. cockaigne

    cockaigne Member

    So here are the numbers of entries announced so far for the regional contests in 2013:

    North of England

    C = 10
    1 = 05
    2 = 05
    3 = 08
    4 = 12

    Total 40 bands, average 8 bands per section

    West of England

    C = 11
    1 = 13
    2 = 16
    3 = 15
    4 = 21

    Total 76 bands, average 15 per section (with 16 in one)

    Other more mathematically minded people may want to do fancy stuff with this, I don't know... but it's clear there's some disparity, notably in the North of England 1st and 2 sections - what are the sections for?
     
  4. hobgoblin

    hobgoblin Member

    I've always thought that the 1st section is only needed in the traditionally stronger areas. Areas such as L&SC, Mids, and WoE would be better served by scrapping the first section, regrading the bands downwards keeping the current size of the championship section, and having a new 5th section to encourage the terrific amount of grass-roots 'talent' in these areas. NoE may also benefit from this in that they would have larger and more competitive 2nd/3rd sections again, instead of the bands in these sections having almost a 50/50 chance of going to the finals.
     
  5. hobgoblin

    hobgoblin Member

    Looking at those stats NoE need to relegate at least 3 'championship' section bands, and scrap the first section. Sad days indeed, although if there were a 5th section at Stevenage I think my band might consider contesting.
     
  6. cockaigne

    cockaigne Member

    This implies that you feel that not all regions can field a 1st section of appropriate standard -and so we should scrap that, and create a new bottom section. Is that really productive?

    Surely the sections themselves are self-segregating - standards may vary between the same section in different regions - and that's why we have the national finals for regional qualifiers...
     
  7. davethehorny

    davethehorny Member

    More interesting is when you compare the North of England to the West of England the places on offer at the National Finals are exactly the same therefore the chance of qualifying for the finals are: -

    North Championship 20% West of England Championship 18%
    1st Section 40% 1st Section 15%
    2nd Section 40% 2nd Section 12.5%
    3rd Section 25% 3rd Section 13%
    4th Section 16% 4th Section 14%

    I agree that it is high time that the boundaries are revisited. Does having a 40% chance of qualifying devalue the qualifying process a little?
     
  8. cockaigne

    cockaigne Member

    Also worth bearing in mind that in some regions, the chances of a Championship section band qualifying may be higher still, depending on the number of bands playing who have already pre-qualified from last year's finals.
     
  9. hobgoblin

    hobgoblin Member

    Surely that's the whole idea - reward the successful areas where the qualifying bands go on to feature in the prizes at the Finals. This is a good way to balance the need for a quality contest with a legitimate 'national' representation. We all know there are a few areas where qualification is pretty much nailed on for one or two bands, who then go on with just as much regularity to get a reeming at the finals when they come up against decent opposition.
     
  10. five or less only one band qualifies?
     
  11. Nigel Hall

    Nigel Hall Supporting Member

    Nope, the rules state that 1-16 bands entered and two bands qualify, hardly seems fair that sections in two regions (NoE and Wales) can have 5 or 6 entries and get two qualifiers and any other region with 16 entries still get the same two qualifiers.
     
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  13. tubafran

    tubafran Active Member

    1-16 and 2 qualify - what if there's only 1 band entered? Perhaps less then 5 or 6 should only be 1?
     
  14. Posh

    Posh Member

    Then they're made to play twice! ;)
     
  15. bassmittens

    bassmittens Member

    Hope you're not suggesting rule changes to the regional qualifying contests...........

    ;)
     
  16. cockaigne

    cockaigne Member

    I wouldn't think that a rebalancing of section numbers would require a change to the rules in itself. Changes to the number of qualifying bands would, however.

    Of course it's hard to predict entry numbers for each section from one year to the next (even top section bands have been known to fold - or effectively do so - between Area contests), but the occasional readjustment - such as we've seen in the West of England this year - might help to keep the balance between sections a little more even.

    There seems to be a slight bias towards demoting bands over promoting them, built in to the system - bands which do not attend the area, or withdraw their entry, will find themselves relegated as quickly as those bands which attend, play and achieve low results. Relegations like this, though unfortunate, are much more common than an unusual number of promotions (due to a tie in three-year points between two or more bands, or a national champion going up under that rule when the band wouldn't have otherwise been promoted)
     
  17. bassmittens

    bassmittens Member

    Sorry Jack - i was only winding Francis up a little with this comment (with my tongue firmly in my cheek).

    PS - i do agree, that redistribution could be overdue (esp in some areas), either by adjusting boundaries or section numbers, but it would take a lot of careful thought and discussion with the bands.
     
  18. cockaigne

    cockaigne Member

    Quite all right - I often operate here on a clockwork basis myself :)
     
  19. boourns

    boourns Member

    Shouldn't be a problem, Kapitol have an excellent track record in this regard.
     
  20. cockaigne

    cockaigne Member

    I believe that a change of the sort bassmittens refers to could be made by the regional committees; no need to involve Kapitol unless a change to the rules was required. AFAIK the WoE committee made the decision to reduce the size of their 4th section quite independently.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2013
  21. ben16

    ben16 Member

    I agree some areas could do with a drastic shake-up. Maybe too controversial but maybe some "championship section"s should be reduced to the couple of bands who are actually good enough to win any kind of "championship" at all, leaving a healthy first section.

    In my area at least there are a healthy number of 1st section standard bands with good rivalries etc. - unfortunately half (or more) of them are in the top section at any one time, so there is a lot of struggling with too-hard pieces, reduced chance for competition between genuine rivals, and a lot of yoyo going on.
     
  22. BigBlaster

    BigBlaster New Member

    Every region could just administer a 20% ruling on all sections so they are all equal. This could easily be reviewed every 2 years based on entry numbers, points awarded, etc. I believe the NW region have independently tried to even out their sections. Not so sure why other regions can't do this as well? However my personal view would be to split the region as follows :- Championship 15%,1st, 2nd, 3rdsection 20% and 4th section 25% representation. Also I would re-define the number of bands allowed to qualify based on the number of entries. 1-8 (1band qualifies), 2-16(2 bands), 17-24(3 bands) 25+(4 bands). BTW. Great thread!
     

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