WANTED B&H Round Stamp Globe Tenor Horn in Good Condition

Discussion in 'Classifieds' started by HicksCC, Nov 14, 2012.

  1. HicksCC

    HicksCC New Member

    I am looking to upgrade from my Besson 600 Tenor Horn to a Sovereign. I've tried a newish BE950 Sovereign (it was a lottery instrument) but it doesn't sound as good as my old Besson 600 which I played up to Championship level a good few years ago! I've read that the best Sovereigns made were some of the old Round Stamp horns so wondered if there are any out there looking for a new home ? Any helpful comments would be appreciated !

    Thank you !
  2. Suziebabe

    Suziebabe Member

    Without doubt the best Sovereign Horn. I have tried the new ones and to be honest the Global is so much better all round. Good luck with your search :)
  3. Rapier

    Rapier Supporting Member

    The new Bessons are all tested by Owen Farr, and he can play a bit. The Yamaha Neo is designed with help from Sheona White. She can play a bit too, and I think the Neo edges it for sound.

    Just to throw a spanner in the works.
  4. HicksCC

    HicksCC New Member

    No spanner thrown in, as the new Bessons and Neos are out of my price range at the moment !
  5. Mello

    Mello Active Member

    Dear HicksCC,
    The Old Globe Sovereign Horns came in a couple of phases: Main way of telling is by taking out the main tuning slide as the length of the legs changed from short ones on the older models, to long ones on the newer models.

    For what its worth, in my opinion, the older ones ( with short Main slides ) are far superior to the newer. So if you can, get one with the shorter slide.

    I knew both models well , from personal experience, as I used to play the Horn myself, - check out Jenny Jones on You Tube, which I played on the older Sovereign http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7rSMMa5kQg
    Hope you are able to get hold of one, you will love it.

    I am NOT in anyway, slagging any of the new instruments , nor the excellent players who use them. I am simply comparing the older Global Sovereigns.
    Good luck, Gordon Higginbottom
  6. John_D

    John_D Member

    and I still have fond memories of the weekends at Gunton Hall where you showed us just what could be achieved.
  7. T Winch

    T Winch Member

    A superb bit of understatement!! A bit like Pele saying "I used to play a bit of football" :clap:
  8. HicksCC

    HicksCC New Member

    Thank you so much for all the information. Just listened to the youtube clip what a fabulous sound (although only a small percentage must be down to the instrument !) I much prefer a mellow sound to a bright one.

    I now know of four globe sovereigns up for sale. Two of them I've checked with the sellers and they have main slides of 1.5" internally. They are from 1978 / 1979 so I assume these must be the short ones as I can't imagine them getting any shorter ?

    Without trying them it's going to be difficult to decide which to take a risk on. Prices are ranging from 600 to 1200
  9. LesleyAnneJones

    LesleyAnneJones New Member


    I have been looking for a reasonably priced Sovereign too, but have not seen one as low as 600. Could you let me know where you were looking?
  10. HicksCC

    HicksCC New Member

    Hi Lesley,

    The £600 Round Stamp Sovereign Horn was owned by a member of this forum but needed quite a lot of tlc, he also had another one he wanted around £1000 for, which was in good condition but I think he has now decided to keep the one needing tlc and I think he had a buyer for the other. I bought one in the end from Jenny at www.Cash4Brass.co.uk whom I would highly recommend. She is 100% honest about the condition of the instruments she sells and she only sells ones that are in very good to excellent condition. I think she has some Sovereigns for sale now although not the round stamp versions although she could probably find one for you as a lot of people seem to use her for upgrading their instruments. I paid £1130 for mine (without a case) but it is pristine and plays wonderfully. Hope this helps, Caroline.
  11. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    If you cut down the main tuning slide of one of the newer ones, do you obtain one that plays the same way as the older ones? Or were there other differences?

    Just curiosity from a horn ignoramus.
  12. Mello

    Mello Active Member

    Hi Dave,
    Sorry , not being involved with the latest one ( other than being provided with one ) .. I got the impression that it was elongated to allow greater scope for tuning. I know some bands played so flat, that the Hns had to really pull out their main slide , almost to the brink.
    However, the playing characteristics were (for me) considerably changed, and I duly retained my old one - and got rid of the new one.
    Sorry I cannot qualify further, but I am also an ignoramus when it comes to the technical bits.
    I used to work with Richard Smith ( B&H designer ) who used to give wonderful demonstrations of various nodal patterns and how the slightest change in the tubing affected the note.
    Example : When using an oscillator and rubber pipe to produce a pure constant sound , by slightly compressing the tube in different places, the pitch would sharpen or flatten according to where pressed, as it affected the normal wave pattern of the frequency.
    The same principle applies to Brass, ( which helps designers determine the best location for Bends, Water Keys, supporting stays etc )., Even deviations of tubing thickness can affect the tuning, sound quality etc., quite dramatically. So it is very possible that the process of lengthening the inner slide , which obviously increases the density , was a contributory factor.
    Latterly, I received some technical training from the Yamaha designers -in Japan and Frankfurt on these issues, which completely re enforced the principles passed to me by Richard.
    Hope that kind of helps. BUT , as I say, I am no mechanic and would hate to be responsible for the ruination of an instrument if it gets aputated !
    GH ( Mello)
  13. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Thanks Gordon. Must have been fascinating work. The Sovereign euphs look like they are laid out identically to Imperial euphs - I sometimes wonder if redesigning the layout from scratch would have avoided the introduction of the high-register intonation problems that bedevil most Sovereign euphs. Would that have been done in Richard Smith's day?
  14. Mello

    Mello Active Member

    Sorry Dave, The Euphs were well established when I came on the scene and I honestly don't know the answer to that.

    You are correct in that it was fascinating , to say the least. One of the highlights was Richards lecture / presentation to the Institute of Acousticians in London. He even introduced a paper mache head to illustrate that what a Trombonist hears, differs from what the player hears ( using a sensor mike inserted inside the head ! ). Richard , amazingly was not a Brass Player, but a Bassoonist.
    He is such an incredibly talented man, and a quiet gentleman with it. After he left B & H Richard went into partnership with Derek Watkins producing the Smith - Watkins Trumpets.
    Cheers, and thanks for your acknowlegement.
  15. Cybone

    Cybone New Member


    Whilst we are on the subject....

    I have a sovereign tenor horn which purports to have once been owned by you. I bought it in 2003. Inside the case is a hand written address label with your name and an address in Whitefield, Manchester. I guess it could have been a clever marketing ploy by a previous owner.

    Anyway, the sovereign crest has been removed.

    I measured the legs of the main tuning slide and they are one and a half inches. Does this make them the short ones?

    Do you have any recollection of this horn or did you play so many different ones that this is an unreasonable question?
  16. Mello

    Mello Active Member

    Hi Cybone,
    Could be genuine.....I used to live in Meadow Croft Whitefield.
    The main slide seem to be the right length. It would probably be in the old Blue Case ( though this could have been replaced over the years.)

    I actually played 4 in my time, one I sold to Alison Childs whom I used to teach when I was in Whitefield .
    If you wish to ring me for a chat about it...there maybe another couple of things about it that I don't wish to put on here (which could confirm it ) , as others may wish to copy and use to sell one I never saw.
    Please send me a private message & I will ring you back if you wish.

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