Ungraded/Unregistered band in competitions!!!

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by sudcornet, Sep 15, 2008.

  1. Straightmute

    Straightmute Active Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    York
    Hardraw Contest was traditionally for the Dales bands. I was looking at the 1984 programme last night and wondering if all of these village bands still exist; if so its a shame that they don't compete at what is really 'their' event. Reeth, Muker and Hawes bands played a big part, and Slaidburn Band were regular visitors. Their playing and their uniforms etc were less well refined than the bands who play there today, but they played a big part in the musical life of the Dales. So I don't agree at all that they should be forced to change, to register and adopt 'national' values when in reality they rarely play outside their own village, let alone take part in national contests. We're priviliged to be able to take part in their event; I worry that we may have pushed them out.

    I've known Sud for a long time and he's a great guy. He's competed at the highest level and yet he's returned to his roots to help his local band who have struggled for a while to find a decent MD. People don't get angry if they don't care passionately about something, and banding needs people who care.

    I'm also a big fan of Otley Band; what Gordon and his team of players has done over the last few years is nothing short of miraculous. They have reached a very high standard in a short space of time and they are clearly enjoying themselves - when so many bands are falling apart its great to see one with a surplus of happy players. Whether or not they jump onto the treadmill of national competitions is entirely up to them. I do hope that they can enjoy polishing their trophies and not worry too much about a single, unfortunate emotional outburst.

    What a great day. Hope we don't draw number one again.
    David
     
  2. Bandstand

    Bandstand Member

    Messages:
    47
    Location:
    Teesdale
    The four bands you mention are still going.
    Reeth and Muker both have CDs out and have been featured on 'Bandstand' in recent months.


    By all means be passionate about your band, but passion is no excuse for bad manners.
     
  3. Straightmute

    Straightmute Active Member

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    1,922
    Location:
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    I got it wrong - it was 1983. The competing bands were:

    Giggleswick and Settle (3rd)
    Kirkby Lonsdale (6th)
    Hawes (2nd)
    Appleby
    Slaidburn
    Middleton and Teesdale
    Ripon
    Rivington and Adlington (1st - my dad's band!)
    Northallerton
    Barnoldswick (5th)
    Dalton in Furness
    Muker
    Easingwold
    Harrogate (4th)
    Copeland Borough
    Kirkby Lonsdale Youth

    The adjudicator was Roy Newsome. There was no mention in the programme of any sections, rules, prizes, trophies or money! But my dad tells me that Rivington (who completed their hat trick that day) took some flack from the locals because they were 'too professional' and wore proper uniforms... Some things never change!

    David
     
  4. DMBabe

    DMBabe Supporting Member

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    Location:
    Oxford nowhere near the sea
    I know this might have been said already but after this thread turned into a fairly spectacular example of "Dummy Spitting", i couldn't be bothered to read all 6 pages...

    However, As a Scot who lives under the umbrella of what seems a wholly less complicated system than other areas (wasn't till I came on here I found out that bands can be graded as one section locally and another nationally in some areas:eek:), its the case here that if you want to compete in an association approved contest then you have to be a registered band, with the exception of less formal contests where so called "non-contesting" bands (stupid name of they're gonna attend contests???) can compete but have only the right to win open prizes and not section prizes. A bit like the whits hence fairer all round?

    Although I am at a loss as to why non-contesting bands would want to go to contests? If you're gonna do it, then do it full-time!!!:confused:
     
  5. 2ndcornets

    2ndcornets New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    Yorkshire Dales
    Hardraw Rules for unregistered bands

    I read the discussion with interest. I was in the band which won the class at Hardraw, plus the Hymn prize a couple of years ago. We won not least because some regular players were stood down, and occasional experienced players from other, sometimes registered contesting bands were brought in [as they were the year before that]. Friends of the Conductor and his family. After Hardraw another band complained to me that we had cheated.

    I was new to contesting and asked the YHBBA for clarification of the rules. The Chair explained that this was an old and vexed issue and kindly invited me to speak to the post Hardraw YHBBA meeting, and I presented a paper suggesting what the rules and the spirit of them might be, using the actions of my then ex band conductor as a case study. So the subject has been raised with the organisers, at least one of whom took the trouble to make life a bit hot for me with both the band concerned, and the one I was playing with at that time !.

    Fair to say some members of the Committee were not enthusiastic about the topic, not least because some of them knew the conductor and his musical banding familly. However, it was agreed that unregistered bands would be reminded about the need to restrict deputies to a small number [4] and only use them if the band could not otherwise compete, not to gain points or supplant weaker regular players. That said I have seen a set of proper rules for Hardraw in circulation now that emphasises this so good on YHBBA. Enforcement is, of course, another issue.

    So the issue is not new. My suggested solution was that unregistered bands would receive automatic registration as an integral part of the prize for winning. That would last for a set number of years during which the band could compete on a level with others, or stay off the pitch, as it were. I guess it wont be taken up as being too "complicated", in the same way that approaching a week after the Hardraw contest the organisers still have no results listed for 2008.

    Finally, I know from this site that Otley had a good day, well done all of you. But I still dont know who won the Hymn prize in the unregistered, or any of the other class winners ?. Sorry colleagues, this is my first post so apologies for the length.
     
  6. Bandstand

    Bandstand Member

    Messages:
    47
    Location:
    Teesdale
    HARDRAW BRASS BAND CONTEST RESULTS

    1st SHEPHERD BUILDING GROUP
    2nd BROUGHTON BRASS
    3rd HARROGATE BAND
    4th WETHERBY BAND
    5th SOUTH YORKS POLICE
    Best March SHEPHERD BUILDING GROUP
    Best Hymn BROUGHTON BRASS
    Best Solo HARROGATE


    FOURTH AND UNGRADED BANDS

    1st OTLEY BAND
    2nd FRIENDLY BAND (Sowerby Bridge)
    3rd LEYBURN BAND
    4th SHEPHERD BUILDING CONCERT BAND
    5th SWINTON BAND

    Best March OTLEY BAND
    Best March (Ungraded Band) OTLEY BAND
    Best Hymn FRIENDLY BAND
    Best Solo OTLEY BAND

    The winning soloist with Otley was Dan Eddison (14 years of age). Not sure of the name of the Harrogate soloist - perhaps some one can enlighten us.

    We gave out most of these results last Sunday evening on BANDSTAND, our radio programme on Radio Teesdale (102.1 & 105.5fm in S W Durham / N Yorks area). The programme is broadcast each Sunday at 8pm and repeated on Tuesday at 10pm. The programme is also available online: www.radioteesdale.co.uk

    Michael Fryer
     
  7. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,640
    Please can you stop spamming this thread with messages that are purely posted to promote your site. If you want to take advantage of the many visitors tMP has and wish to get them to visit your own site or to listen to your radio station, then perhaps you would consider some form of advertising or sponsorship of the site. Thanks.
     
  8. Bandstand

    Bandstand Member

    Messages:
    47
    Location:
    Teesdale
    In response to The Music Man

    I don't believe my input into this debate is 'spam'.

    I provided background information to the contest,
    Put the results on the Mouth Piece - they are still not on the YHBBA website (2nd Cornets wanted to know the results).
    Compared Hardraw with Teesdale (a contest a couple of Dales away).
    Gave people the opportunity to listen to an interview with the MD of Otley Band (recorded before the contest). This was in response to specific requests.
    Answered a question about the existence of four bands (in response to Straightmule).

    Surely this is giving people information NOT spamming.

    With regard to your request for advertising or sponsorship. My wife, Val, and I present 'Bandstand' on Radio Teesdale (a COMMUNITY radio station) on a voluntary basis and receive NO payment not even expenses.
    [ We also present 'Music for the Vintage Generation' (standards and pre-Beatles music) on Monday at 9pm and repeated on Sunday at 5pm - I did not mention this on the Mouth Piece because it is not relevant to brass banding]

    When the BBC is stopping most of its brass band music programmes then surely a programme such as ours should be welcome. We do all we can to promote brass banding by giving out as much information as possible about diary dates, results etc. Features on contests such as Hardraw, Teesdale, Brass in Concert and others are regulars on the programme. The last two programmes were devoted to the Hardraw Contest with music played from ten of the contesting bands and we gave out the results within four hours of the contest finishing.

    Shortly we are producing two programmes on YOUTH involvement in brass banding. I would hope to receive some input from contributors to the Mouth Piece to make sure that the programmes cover as wide a spectrum as possible. Does your comment imply that a request for such information would be unwelcome?

    Is the Mouth Piece a forum for discussion and the promotion of banding or is it just for people to have grumble?
     
  9. Straightmute

    Straightmute Active Member

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    1,922
    Location:
    York
    It was David Smith, who played Satchmo.
     
  10. Straightmute

    Straightmute Active Member

    Messages:
    1,922
    Location:
    York
    Straightmule? I know I can be stubborn at times but that seems a little harsh!
     
  11. Dave Jaybee

    Dave Jaybee New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Get a grip musicman. Seems to me bandstand was just passing on info of interest to contributors here. Is it something personal????
     
  12. Bandstand

    Bandstand Member

    Messages:
    47
    Location:
    Teesdale

    Apologies - I'll have to get some new glasses.
    Thought it was an unusual name!
    Thanks for the soloist's name - I can give a full list of results tomorrow night.
     
  13. Jan H

    Jan H Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    6,473
    Location:
    Belgium
    Keep the discussion on topic please.
    There is another thread about the results of the Hardraw contest.

    This thread is for discussing ungraded/unregistered bands in contests

    edit: further off-topic replies have been removed
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2008
  14. peterg

    peterg Member

    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    North Yorks
    Hi All,

    As I am the current chairperson of the yhbba, perhaps I should comment on what we are going to do regarding this thread and also firstly, comment on a couple of remarks made by `2ndcornet'.

    His comment regarding `automatic registration' if you win the section is a bit silly - it begs the questions who pays? and how can we or anyone else impose this on a band if they have no desire to to so. The results are not on the Yhbba website simply because the sites webmaster went away on holiday directly from the contest having spent all day there with her husband working on your behalf. We are all allowed a holiday once in a while! and these usually have to revolve around a bands engagement list. All the results are awaiting their return when I am sure they will be available for you to peruse and will incidently include the actual total marks given to each and every band.

    With regard to the subject of this thread i can assure you all that it will be discused at the next association meeting. (see yhbba site for details) What we need YOU all to do is get involved by letting us know your constructive views/suggestions on the way forward. You can do this either by email to the yhbba website or by letter to the secretary. All member bands are encouraged to send delegates to the meetings (though very few do) where they can join in the running of the Association and influence what it decides.
    I don,t know what will happen regarding the structure of the event next year, only time will tell but i can assure you that we will take on board every suggestion made in when we discuss it.

    On a final note, I was there from 8am till about 6.30pm which was well after all bands and spectators had left, only a couple of the organisers remained. I had a difficult (traffic duty) but thoroughly enjoyable day (vast majority of band members were great though an injection of common sense would not go amiss for a few) and managed to listen to two bands in total.

    The question I ask is, did anyone notice the age of the organisers/stewards. I may get shot for this but I am 15 months from my free bus pass, all but two others who were either there all day or attend association meetings are are well past this age. The gist of this is that if younger people do not get involved in the running of these events and associations in general, they will disappear - end result - no hardraw to complain about. This cannot be allowed to happen so come on get your suggestions in for discussion and GET INVOLVED.
     
  15. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

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    14,640
    Only just seen this... crikey...! "Get a grip..." what on earth is that supposed to mean? Bandstand may very well be passing on info, but he has already done so several times in this thread. I am not able to post a comment on the radio station he manages and delivers without it first going through someone for approval... and if I did get a comment approved, I am sure a second, third and fourth request would not be. Yet, on tMP, every registered member is able to do this. All we try to do is ensure that fair play is given to all.

    Oh, and as to your comment re personal, I shall give that the contempt it warrants.
     
  16. Dave Jaybee

    Dave Jaybee New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Fair enough musicman. Three comments here:
    1. It`s the internet. Free access is its curse and its greatest asset.
    2. At least one other person posted agreeing that your reaction to bandstand was ott. These posts have been deleted as presumably being off topic by a fellow mod.
    3. Now you (and I) are also off topic.
    Contempt seems to be your strong point so I`ll leave you to it.
     
  17. andywooler

    andywooler Supporting Member

    Messages:
    1,853
    Peter, what a great first post - as someone who has served on a local association committee I recognise all the points you make.
     
  18. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,640
    My last post on this matter to you.

    I don't answer to you, like it or lump it. My site, my rules. tMP may be free, but I do not appreciate being told by you, to get a grip, on a site I provide to you and others... for free!. End of.
     
  19. Thirteen Ball

    Thirteen Ball Active Member

    Messages:
    4,307
    Location:
    Brighouse, Yorkshire
    I;m sure the mods are sick of saying things like this, and getting unnecessary abuse for it - so maybe I'll stick my oar in instead.

    This thread - though started by issues at a certain contest, is not restricted to JUST issues at Hardraw Scar. It's meant to be a generic debate on the subject of how ungraded bands ahould be treated at contests - to which I've already contibuted a generic reply (see post 2)

    If anyone wants to specifically discuss who won what at hardraw, then there's already a thread for that too - this is not the place.

    Bandstand, I fail to see how an interview with Chuck from Canadian brass cuts any ice on the subject of unregistered bands in contests. John has a very well structured area for commercial advertisement - which I'd suggest you investigate as a method of publicity. I'd certainly agree bands need all the airtime they can get, but there is a place for everything on TMp - so everything should by rights be in it's place.

    Right, back to topic.

    As I said earlier, competing as an unregistered band has it's downsides. It's not just a case of going round contests and hoovering up the prizes, as such bands often rule themselves out of as many prizes as they rule themselves in for.

    A lot of contests have a fourth section prize - which unregistered bands of course cannot win. They are als often divided by grading, with unregistered bands only able to compete in the 'open' section - ie: the highest level of the contest.

    When we competed in the New Zealand national championships, since we had no official NZ registry, we competed alongside the A Grade bands - effectively their championship section - despite having only been promoted to the top section at home because another band band appealed to stay down.

    Would we have been graded B-Grade if we were a NZ band? Probably not - however the principle remains the same. Had we been second section, or third, we could quite reasonably have been asked to compete at the highest level of the contest - as is common practise over here - so could have ended up punching well above our weight.

    Do not make the mistake of assuming just because a good band goes ungraded, it can only be to their advantage.
     
  20. catherine_S

    catherine_S Member

    Messages:
    138
    Location:
    Malton, North Yorkshire
    Hi gang - well, I'm back now, and it seems I chose an interesting time to go on holiday!;) Leave people alone for one minute and look what happens:biggrin:

    As of now the results are up on the YHBBA site - sorry it took so long, but where I was in Cornwall, getting a mobile signal was interesting, never mind internet!!

    Strangely, while I was away, I was thinking about the differing standards of unregistered bands - partly because we greatly enjoyed having a blow with a couple of very different unregistered bands while we were down there (thanks for the hospitality, guys, see you next year, I hope!) - and it does seem to me that possibly keeping the registered and unregistered bands in different groupings may be the answer. There are lots of reasons why bands stay unregistered and they frequently have nothing to do with standards.

    With regard to the second point Peter made - about the ages of the organisers etc. - I'd fully endorse it. With the exception of Stuart, I think I may well have been the youngest steward there and I've only six years to my bus pass!! This can't be healthy, and puts an awful lot of pressure on everyone. So get involved! Ask if your band regularly sends a delegate to your association meetings - if they don't, offer to go! If they do, ask for reports and show an interest! Every contest needs stewards and it can be a rewarding job - try it. Because if the next generation (i.e. the under 50s!!!) don't get involved, there won't be brass banding in 20 years time - just a scatter of brass bands playing in concert venues and muddy fields:frown:
     
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