Triple Tounging

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by ogslam, Feb 10, 2011.

  1. ogslam

    ogslam New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Lancaster uni
    I am currently finding triple tounging very difficult, which is an issue with the latest area test piece. I have had very few lessons and was wondering if anyone had any tips, or practice techniques that could improve this area of my technique?
     
  2. dhanimiller

    dhanimiller Member

    Messages:
    115
    Location:
    Salford
    I'd suggest starting off by saying ta-ta-ka slowly over and over again, then get the instrument involved.
    Also try accenting the ka as it will be the weakest sounding note, then you'll just need to do it over and over... I suggest reading something or watching telly whilst you do it. The more you do it, the more you can build up speed!
     
  3. mikelyons

    mikelyons Supporting Member

    Messages:
    10,094
    Location:
    Wigan
    I would also suggest getting a tutor like the arban and an experienced teacher to help you through it before it becomes a blockage. As well as te-te-ke, you could also try de-de-ge - though some people would probably want to shoot me for suggesting it!
     
  4. trumpetmike

    trumpetmike Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,161
    Location:
    Farnham, Surrey, UK
    Work on the back (k, ka, koo, g, ga, goo - whatever takes your fancy) articulation. Play simple tunes first of all on the front articulation (ta, da, etc), then repeat on the K - aim for the pair to be equal.
    When they sound the same then you will find that speeding it up is the "easy" bit - just work on speeding up whilst still sounding even, clear and good.

    I would also advocate working on the various different patterns of triple tongue - TTK TTK TTK, TKT TKT TKT, and TKT KTK TKT (double tongue over a triplet feel). Each of these have a place in various pieces of music and if you can master any pattern that comes up you will never be surprised, nor unable to cope.
     
  5. Baton twirler

    Baton twirler Member

    Messages:
    85
    Location:
    Thurcroft, South Yorkshire
    When I was learning this technique I used to practice my scales just using the "Ku" part of tu tu ku, slowly at first then speed up.
     
  6. Spaniels Ears

    Spaniels Ears Member

    Messages:
    88
    Location:
    Berkshire
    You can start off with the TTK or TKT - but you will then get to a point where you wont be able to go any quicker. Therefore you will have to soften the tonguing by changing this to DGD DDG where you will find you can step it up in terms of speed.

    DGD all the way!
     
  7. Aussie Tuba

    Aussie Tuba Member

    Messages:
    872
    Location:
    Brisbane Australia
    arban has been mentioned. I used the 'Wright and Round Complete Method' worked for me and it was based on TA TA KA as long as you have no bad habits tounging wise you should not have a problem.
     
  8. Jimmy_2121

    Jimmy_2121 Member

    Messages:
    44
    Location:
    Cannock
    Remember to practice your single tongue too! Whatever triple pattern you use there are always two singles together!
     
  9. euphfiend

    euphfiend New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    Norfolk
    I'd agree with everything that's been said, but I think it's a fact of life that some people can do it quite easily and for others it's a struggle. I started playing euph when I was 12 and I'm 52 now. I also play flute and recorder (stop sniggering in the back row) and I can triple tongue at a great rate of knots on those, but i still struggle to triple tongue convincingly on euph. The extra tension of the brass embouchure seems to get in the way of it working properly, even though I know how to do the syllables and, as I say, can do it fluently on other instruments. I read somewhere that it may be to do with the relative size of your tongue and your mouth cavity, which kind of makes sense. I can also only do it TKT TKT or DGD DGD - I instantly get tongue tied if I try to do TTK or DDG.
    The good news is that even at my advanced age, I'm improving and having been working at it over the last few weeks, I'm better than I was a couple of months ago. So I'm sure you'll get the hang of it! Hope this helps.
     
  10. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,487
    Location:
    Oxford
    You're already successfully playing TTK... Just with an extra TK at the start. Unless you are employing the TKT KTK method, you always have to put two Ts back to back somewhere.
     
  11. euphfiend

    euphfiend New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    Norfolk
    I've just spent a couple of minutes ticking and clucking away to myself and while I can see the logic in what you say, it remains the case that I can repeat TKT easily but I can't repeat TTK, and I think that's an experience that other people have too. It's annoying, because I can do TTK as a single triplet and it speaks and sounds better than TKT, but I can't repeat it, or at least not at a speed that's useful. Don't know if this is helping Ogslam with his problem, apart from showing that there are as many solutions as there are players, and that we all have to work round our particular strengths and weaknesses. I would love to be able to it properly though.....(sigh)
     
  12. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,487
    Location:
    Oxford
    TKT is doing it properly - if it sounds even. Being able to do TKT but not TTK tends to be a sign of a minor unevenness somewhere in the group. Tends to be, anyway. If that's your issue, getting things more even might help you master TTK?
     
  13. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    Messages:
    11,866
    This is basically what Jim Shepherd advised me many years ago. At all times you must try to achieve control and weighting of all notes in the groups across different speeds.
     
  14. P_S_Price

    P_S_Price Member

    Messages:
    774
    Location:
    Rochdale
    You werent Taught by Brian Farrar perchance were you?
     
  15. davidquinlan

    davidquinlan Member

    Messages:
    854
    Location:
    New Southgate, London
    As people have mentioned, practice the weaker articulation, the k, g, ga, whatever you choose. What pattern you chose to use entirely depends on the music you have to play.
     
  16. jackocorn

    jackocorn Member

    Messages:
    88
    Location:
    Bristol
    I used to play pieces in reharsal using only the " k, g, ga" articulation. If nobody notices your doing OK!
     
  17. catto09

    catto09 Member

    Messages:
    241
    Location:
    Aberdeen
    All this advice is great - but you're gonna get loads of different methods of doing it and get confused. My advice is seek out a tutor who can examine your embouchure as you play, so he/she can work out the best learning technique for you!

    If this isn't an option. I found that I was actually speeding up the vowels and tripping over my own tongue. Despite this - if you can get the vowels right, that's only half the job done. Next you need to work on making sure you can support it with enough air, otherwise you're just spitting sawdust! You should be aiming to keep a constant flow of air with your tongue just flicking the air so it sounds as if there's a gap. Try whistling and doing the vowels :)

    And as always - Use a Metronome!
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2011
  18. Spaniels Ears

    Spaniels Ears Member

    Messages:
    88
    Location:
    Berkshire
    Nope, Stuart Roebuck, the late tuba player
     
  19. Thirteen Ball

    Thirteen Ball Active Member

    Messages:
    4,307
    Location:
    Brighouse, Yorkshire
    I'm gonna jump on this thread for some advice too, as this is one of my weaknesses as a player.

    Has anyone else encountered the problem where you can double and triple to your heart's content where there's no mouthpiece involved (even with your embouchoure formed) but as soon as you put the thing to your face it all goes to horsefeathers?

    Invariably that's what happens to me. And I've never worked out why....
     
  20. dhanimiller

    dhanimiller Member

    Messages:
    115
    Location:
    Salford
    I encounter this ALL the time! It drives me round the bend...

    I was quite naughty when i taught myself to triple tounge in certain pieces, like the last variation in rule brittania, I end up going dalulu...with my tongue touching the sides of my top teeth... Now to try and break the bad habit!
     
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