Tremalow or flutter tongue

Discussion in '2006 National Championships of Great Britain discu' started by GingerMaestro, Feb 14, 2006.

  1. GingerMaestro

    GingerMaestro Active Member

    In the 1st movement of Entertainments thier is a Tied note which as it is written should be played as a Trem but if you listen to a recording of this it could mistaken for a flutter what do you think I personally play it as a Trem from 2/3 to 1 I have also be told you can get away with 2/3 to 3 but to me the 3rd valve G# does not lay easy on the ear
  2. Steve

    Steve Active Member

    There is the answer!!!!! Until Mr Conductor decides otherwise anyway.
  3. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    Er, what note is it again?

    If it's a tremelo, then the two notes should be the same on both valve combinations - the only one with 2nd and 2/3 that I can think of is a D# (or Eb ;) )in the stave - but you mention G#? To do a tremelo that involves a G# with the combination you've described would take you up another octave...

    I know I'm being pedantic - but is it a trem or a till?
  4. GingerMaestro

    GingerMaestro Active Member

    Where did i mention 2/3 to 2
  5. Anno Draconis

    Anno Draconis Active Member

    It's unclear, normally I'd expect the part to specify which, we're playing it as a flutter. It may be that the recording sounds like a flutter because it's a really fast trem though..!
  6. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    Sorry - brain has taken a holiday this afternoon! :oops:

    That said, can you play a G# on 3rd valve - I always though it was an A? (or a G nat?) ;)
  7. 1alexm

    1alexm Member

    I play solo cornet, meaning that i have top G# it is marked as a tremalow but according to my mates, its impossible to do it, so i just flutter tounge or just hold the note.
    (yes i'm a cheater)
  8. Baritonedeaf

    Baritonedeaf Member

    Well i am playing a flutter tongue...

    Not been pointed out as wrong yet - although to be fair the MD may still be working through my other errors first :biggrin:!
  9. imthemaddude

    imthemaddude Active Member

    The whole band almost has the trem and most of people like the rep have a nice note- an E and I would have thought that if the majority of the band play it, the people that cant would be ok because its FF and the others would compensate for a few on a held note.
  10. GJG

    GJG Active Member

    Not so. Top G# tremolo can be executed by alternating 2/3 with 1/2/3.

    It's not the most user-friendly tremolo, and will require a fair amount of first-valve trigger to bring the tuning down. It will also require a bit of practice until you get used to the 'feel' of it, but it's certainly not unplayable. It is also possible, with practice, to do it pretty fast, which might explain why it sounds like a 'flutter'

  11. cornetcheese

    cornetcheese Member

    It's definately a tremolo - if it were to be fluttered, I would have assumed there would be an "flutter" or "flz" something somewhere on the part? I've seen many cases in scores of other pieces when a note is written in this way to mean a tremolo.

    Incidentally, with regard to the G# tremolo, I've got the front row at Woodbrige doing this on 23/123 - seems to work quite well!
  12. cornetcheese

    cornetcheese Member

    Just realised Mr. Green got their first, duh!
  13. rutribal

    rutribal Member

    It should also be possible to play a G# on 1st valve as well. In the same way as you can play most upper register notes on the fingering for the note a tone above.

    For example - F can be played on 1 and 3 (like a G)
    G can be played on 1 and 2 (like A)
    A can be played on 2 (like a B)

    Cannot remember exactly, but it has something to do with the closer proximity of the frequency of the harmonics as you increase in pitch.

    So other alternatives for a G# tremolo could be:

    1 - 2 and 3
    1 - 1, 2 and 3
  14. Anno Draconis

    Anno Draconis Active Member

    Spot on. The harmonic series starting from the pedal note, goes octave - 5th - 4th - major 3rd - minor 3rd - very flat (!) augmented 2nd- major second. So 1st valve gives you pedal Bb-Bb below the stave-F-Bb-D-F-G#(flat!)-Bb. Subsequently the series gets very close together so in theory you can play any note above top line F# on 123 using the triggers to bring it down if it's sharp, although in practice it often sounds hideous! As a general rule of thumb, the more valves you use, the more out of tune the note is likely to be since a cornet doesn't have the compensating tubing of a euph or bass.
  15. euphybeast

    euphybeast Member

    Surely flutter tongueing is a form of tremelo?
  16. flower girl

    flower girl Member

    hudds brass are playing it as a tremalo. on 2nd and 3rd valves, to all three.
  17. Jughead

    Jughead New Member

    Now your just being silly:oops:
  18. GJacko

    GJacko Member

    Personally, I'd go for the trem. If I remember correctly, it's written on just about every part. If your third section band is anything like ours, you probably have mixed ability players. At fff, go for effect. In most upper register playing, you can use a whole series of valve combinations as described already by some greater technicians than I.

    BTW, if it's the regionals CD recording you're listening to, keep it for pleasure, not reference (referring to the recording of Entertainments). I don't think it's fantastic!!
  19. meandmycornet

    meandmycornet Active Member

    We are tremalo-ing.... well i'm not myself... third cornet's just have a held note :tongue: the rest of them are temalo-ing though... thats what it says on the part... there was nothing on the errata sheet to say that it should be flutter tongued instead.. so obviously dear Mr Vinter wanted it tremalo-ed... yes?
  20. Naomi McFadyen

    Naomi McFadyen New Member


    And an old piece.... I suspect they didnt flutter too often back then ;-)

    Incidentally, no1, in my opinion, should go exactly by what a recording does... go by the score and trust your MD... :)

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