Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by matt_BBb_bass, Jul 27, 2006.

  1. matt_BBb_bass

    matt_BBb_bass Member

    Hi My names Matt and im 15 and have a piece of music Wallace and Gromit in a qaurtet for 3 trombones and a tuba and its all in bass clef

    I was wondering if i could send anyone the piece of music if they would be kind and arr this piece for me in to 2Bb bass and 2 Eb bass with the Bb bass as the main theme if posiable in treble clef?

    Thanks very much

  2. Roger Thorne

    Roger Thorne Active Member

    Hi Matt,

    Firstly, can I remind you that any alterations (which would include transpositions) to published music will require copyright permission from the Copyright Owner/Publisher. Also, it might be worth checking that the music you have in your possession is copyrighted too!

    Have a read of our Copyright Fact Sheet

  3. Naomi McFadyen

    Naomi McFadyen New Member

    Although you have to arrange the piece first because the people who hold the copyright and give you the permission to publish it require to see the score before giving you a yes or no....
  4. DaveR

    DaveR Active Member

    Not always in my experience anyway......
  5. Maestro

    Maestro Active Member

    ^^^^ I'm sure this 'debate' has been aired before somewhere on here :confused:
  6. Naomi McFadyen

    Naomi McFadyen New Member

    Sorry, but everytime I have asked for copyright permission, they have requested a full score.... not starting a debate, just saying, that's all.
  7. Nigel Hall

    Nigel Hall Supporting Member

    Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I tend to send a score anyway - it saves time!
  8. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    Yeah, funny, that. Something I've never understood - bit of a "catch-22" situation, or even a "fifth-amendment"-type scenario" ... (?)

    If my understanding of copyright law is correct, it's actually a "breach of copyright law" to even commence work on an arrangement without prior permission, so, if a Copyright Holder (or administrator) asks you to submit a score prior to granting permission, are they not inviting you to provide evidence that you have commited a "breach of copyright" ... ?

    Would this be considered "entrapment" in a court of law ... ?
  9. Anno Draconis

    Anno Draconis Well-Known Member

    I suppose technically by asking you to provide a score for them to approve they are giving a kind of limited permission for you to make the arrangement, but not to publish or distribute.
  10. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    - I have to agree with your 'catch 22' analysis. The arranger has no idea what the consequences will be if he/she is asked for a 'draft' of the piece in advance. I think careful wording of the original permission request has to be constructed. If the company wants a sample, then do so in a manner that suggests that work was done after permission's asked. Before anyone jumps down my throat, I have seen a person's home being raided and stripped of all arrangements done or in progress because of a score he sent to a publisher for approval. That was a messy affair and will be in that person's memory for life. He has not written a note since.
  11. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Well-Known Member

    In my experience it depends on what type of piece you are dealing with. A pop arrangement may well be licensed without the copyright holder seeing the score. With a non-pop piece (John Williams or Leonard Bernstein, for example), it is understandable if the estate or agent wants to see the score before granting a licence.

    In both cases, however, it is necessary to get permission to make the arrangement before committing anything to paper (or hard disk!).

    All the above also depend on what third party agreements the copyright holder already has. They may have, for instance, a blanket agreement with an established band publisher. It is much more logical to do this than licence a number of 'one-off' arrangements as they are so expensive to police and keep track of accounting etc
  12. toby hobson

    toby hobson Member

    For Gods Sake!!!!!!

    Im sure the kid was asking for a bit of help transposing some bass quartet, not a analyasis of the more complex details of copyrite law!!

    I take it your a bass player Matt so much like me your proberbly limited on the old rudiments stuff. If i was you i wouldnt be put off by talk of copyrite ect just do the arrangment i guess your not going to be playing it on national TV or putting it on a CD whoever composed the original wont have secret agents at your local village Fete!! And if they did im sure they would look a little silly taking legal action against a 15 year old boy.

    What your struggling with doesnt sound to hard to be honest (and thats comming from a tuba thicky!!) Id ask a music teacher or someone like that who im sure will be able to explain how to do it in simple terms. And you will have no problems. Just dont publish it or anything like that.

    Honestly, whatever next? written permision to sing along to Sinatra in the shower! Im sure music was ment to be about the pleasure of the many not the bank accounts of the few!!
  13. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Well-Known Member

    Most abuse of copyright is done in ignorance. I think it's a very good idea for Matt to be introduced to 'right' and 'wrong' as early as possible.

    I know it sounds a bit heavy but you are encouraging him to break the law.
  14. toby hobson

    toby hobson Member

    Oh come on.......The lad was just asking for some advice. Is it any wonder there is a very limited number of good composers around. Who's to say young Matt wouldnt turn out to be the next Eric Ball or Gilbert Vinter ( and boy, dont we need one) after learning his art using works by a no doubt extreamly wealthy composer.

    You go for it Matt and if you get in trouble, ill be a charactor witness.

    Right then.......Im off just gonna get in my un-insured car and without wearing seatbelts im going to drive at 32 miles per hour in a 30 mph zone!! Ive got to hurry up because im a day late paying my dog licence!
  15. chairman

    chairman New Member

    Yes, he was. And all of the above is advice, some good, some a shade on the dodgy side, some very accurate from people who deal with this issue on a regular and professional basis, and some from people with limited personal knowledge.

    I know which I'd take, probably best to start off the right way.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2006
  16. Di

    Di Active Member

    Why do you persist in encouraging Matt to break the law? It will be Matt facing charges if he breaks the law, not you, and no amount of "character references" and "oh go on, me lud, he's only a kid" will let him off the hook! Philip has offered some very sensible advice. If Matt wishes to start composing, he should start has he means to go on - legally!
  17. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Well-Known Member

    Yes, I know it all sounds over the top, but where would YOU draw the line? If it's 'OK' for Matt to do this, why shouldn't a band conductor arrange the latest No 1?

    And if he does become the next Vinter, he will appreciate a knowledge of copyright (sp.) law (!)

    And I'm sure it is the wish of the owner of this forum not to encourage poor practice.
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2006
  18. Di

    Di Active Member

    Quite right. Again, thank you Philip.

    Just to reinforce tMPs stand on this, even though it has already been posted earlier in this thread, we refer you again to the Copyright Fact Sheet.
  19. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    You are out of order Mr Toby Hobson.

    Philip is 100% right on both counts - (1) the legal advice he offers re copyright AND (2) stating that the wish of the owner of tMP is not to encourage poor practice. Now I wonder how he knows that then eh!

    You want to spout illegal mumbo jumbo, well I guess that's totally your call, but my call however is to state you do it elsewhere and not on tMP. End of.
  20. toby hobson

    toby hobson Member

    The advice he was asking was help on transposing. All i was sugesting was maybe some of the wonderfully tallented people who replied could of maybe shown him how to do what he was struggling with and not put him off with talk of frankly fairly un-realistic potential litigation. Im sure that even with the worst ambulance chasing lawers on board, the thought of a composer who writes for a major Hollywood Film Company sueing a 15 year old child because he arranged a theme of his for tuba quartet to be played in a cornish village hall on a wet saturday afternoon is unlikely at the best. Surely any composer worth his salt would be pleased that somebody likes his work SO much, that they are prepaired to dedicate some precious time arranging it for a chosen group. Maybe copyrite advice would be more suitable to a more advanced composer who is near to publication. Or a major performance. But having said that, yes i do realise that TMP has to be seen not encouraging tecnicaly law breaking practice no matter how petty it is.
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2006

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