top G on Sovereign Euph

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by stevecritchlow, May 3, 2005.

  1. I've got a couple of Euph players, using sovereigns, who struggle to get their top G's in tune. It could be that they're just a bit cr*p:) , but I recall a good conductor a few years ago tell his euph players that theSovereign euph was notorious for this and an alternative fingering should be used.

    Unfortunatly at the time I was a disinterested cornet player, so have forgotten what he said. Any good euph players out there got any tips?
  2. sugarandspice

    sugarandspice Active Member

    yes!- the euph is always sharp on top G's, I'm nopt sure on alternative fingering tho-i have a trigger which sorts it out. 1st and 3rd maybe?.........but im sure a much more knowledgable person will be able to help! :)
  3. brasscrest

    brasscrest Active Member

    I found this to be true. Usually not so bad that I couldn't "lip it" in, but sometimes I went with the fourth valve as an alternate fingering. Or third valve, which also worked, but sometimes led to me missing upward and getting an A instead.
  4. iancwilx

    iancwilx Well-Known Member

    Our MD Jim Davies (Ex Briggus) insists that our euphs use 4th valve for top G's.
  5. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    For those without triggers, 4th valve is the usual way forwards....
  6. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    And before I forget (which I already did!) top Fs are on 1st & 4th if there's a problem
  7. euphybeast

    euphybeast Member

    Yes, the F and G are definitely the hardest to play in tune on a sov.
    4th or 1st & 3rd if it's bad.
    And of course 4th & 1st for F, although I was once told to play G on 1st and F on open. This was really difficult! And the tuning was just differently dodgy!
  8. Okiedokie of Oz

    Okiedokie of Oz Active Member

    You have to remember also, that top g on ANY brass instrument will naturally be sharp. Hence why trombonists always play it out from first position. so your players aren't Cr*p, they are just incapable of using their lips and ears as well as you would like.
  9. ignore me

    ignore me Member

    Agree with pretty much everything said here, espacially with the F.

    Just remember that you have to tune your 4th valve as well, it's a long piece of tubing and easy to get wrong. (it's also an easy bit of tubing to mix up, once played with a baritone player who had theirs mixed up with the main slide for about a year!) This is normally done by playing a scale (e.g G major - saves having to tune the F properly first) and making sure that you end up playing a tuneful note at the end. Same kind of method could be used to tune the F as well with F major scale.

    Don't know if this is a common method or not, but I saw a pro trumpet player do it with a 4 valved flugal - if it works on that it should work on anything!
    Last edited: May 4, 2005
  10. brasscrest

    brasscrest Active Member

    So euph players are better with their lips than bone players, since bone players alter their tuning by moving the slide out but euph players are forced to use their lip? Unlikely! Sometimes the adjustment is too much to use the lip and still get a tuneful sound, which is why fourth valves and triggers were developed in the first place. Using a different valve combination puts you into a different overtone series, where that particular tone is more in tune with the even-tempered scale. There's no shame in using creative fingering to help get a note in tune, particularly if you're responding the the idiosyncracies of a particular instrument.
  11. Imperial

    Imperial Member

    Is that the same on B&H imperial? i guess it probably is because I always seem to be high on top f:s...
  12. brasscrest

    brasscrest Active Member

    Probably. Sov baritones have a similar issue. Can't say for the upper brass as my cornet skills are so poor that tuning is the last thing I'm thinking about, particularly in that range :)

    It's literally impossible to build a brass instrument that is in tune for all tones.
  13. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    More than likely - it's over twenty years since I played an Imperial, and then not really in anger. Try it - if it works, you'll find things much easier on your chops!
  14. NeilW

    NeilW Member

    Thanks for restoring my sanity, everyone!

    I too am having a bit of a fight with tuning top notes, and F, F# and G are the worst!

    I too am opting to use 4th with them and have got 1st and 2nd tuning slides out a bit...

    Since an excursion playing bass, my embouchure isn't the same as it was, and I'm having to play top Cs on 2/3 too - which again seems to work.

    My sov is an "early one" being from 1975. (I know the last of the Imperials were also horrible above the stave!)

  15. hoover euph

    hoover euph New Member

    I tend to find i have to use 1st and 3rd otherwise i'm hellishly sharp!!
  16. hoover euph

    hoover euph New Member

    I also find upper D's to be very flat.... does anyone lse?

    Find I have to use 1st and 3rd again
  17. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Possible fingerings:

    open: should theoretically be a little sharp (0.02 of a semitone), but nowhere near as sharp as it is on the Sovereign Euph. It's just bad design that causes this.

    1+2: should be well flat (~0.3 semitone), but might be the best on rare occasions, if you have a particularly duff instrument...
    3: Like 1+2 but even flatter...
    1+3: should be (and is, if you blow it straight) on the sharp side.
    4: should be okay, if a little on the stuffy side, but some instruments go sharp on this too.
    1+4: sharp and stuffy
    2+3+4: generally the best option for tuning, but sounds like a French Horn!
    1+2+3+4: about as hugely flat as 3 on its own.

    F# and F have equivalents on the same harmonic for all of these bar the last one.

    That definitely doesn't work! The nearest harmonic is about 2/3 of a semitone too high...

    Ones that try to play in tune are! It's not a skill that specialist bone players ever master, because they've got a superior system.

    Ds, D#s and Es, and also C#s to a certain extent. This flat harmonic contrasts with the sharp harmonic immediately above...
  18. sevenhelz

    sevenhelz Active Member

    this is really interesting, i've always played besson and yes the fs and gs etc aren't great, but you get used to how much you have to adjust as most besons seem to be roughly the same on them. my new 967 though has a much worse note - top B. very very, very flat unless i play 2+4, in which case it is really sharp! *mutter mumble*
    also my d's and e's are a little flat but it's only really a problem when played right next to a sharp note.
  19. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    2+4 ought to be about halfway to a C! Try 1+2, 1+3, 1+2+4 or 3+4.
  20. hoover euph

    hoover euph New Member

    isnt it just an omberture thing though?

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