Titling of cornet/trumpet parts.

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by db-123, Dec 27, 2008.

  1. db-123

    db-123 New Member

    Does it annoy you – even mildly – if the part you're about to play on cornet is entitled "trumpet"?

    (I've written some short fanfares for trumpets, French horns and trombones. I'm about to re-copy parts for tenor horns and trombones (and/or baritones/euphoniums) in treble clef. I'm wondering if the trumpet parts should be altered as well.)

    Any opinions welcome!

    thanks – db
     
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  3. Moy

    Moy Active Member

    If it does tough they are all trumpets anyway - ;) well tooters or trumpets.
    All my Eb horns at school transpose the F Horn parts - it's good for them.
    Happy Xmas
     
  4. themusicalrentboy

    themusicalrentboy Active Member

    it doesn't annoy me - it's pointless getting annoyed at something so small.

    do what you want with it.
     
  5. StellaJohnson

    StellaJohnson Active Member

    lifes a bu***r
     
  6. DocFox

    DocFox Supporting Member

    I directed a "concert band" and an orchestra for years. The trumpet players would see a cornet part (even though most owned cornets) and would just play trumpet.

    But if a flugel part came up, magically they all had triple cases with their flugels with them and clamored to play it.

    Leroy Anderson wrote many of his pieces for cornets -- and for good reason. One night I told the "trumpet section" that they couldn't play unless they got out their cornets. They all (but 2 decent gents) packed up and left the rehearsal for the night.

    They wrote a letter to the board about me using the word "hate" about me. All I did was try to get it to be a more authentic sound. Well, with hate being used I stepped down.

    Now, a trumpet part played on a cornet is an improvement in many cases. Trumpets play high fanfares, jazz, dance bands, and Maynard type stuff. The tone and sweetness of a cornet is superior.

    Since the turn of the 20th century, trumpets have become more mellow (big, open bores) and cornets more like trumpets. They are not the same by any means. But they are a lot closer than 100 years ago.

    Although, I must admit with the brass band movement growing outside the UK (I know, there are problems in the UK) makers are now making cornets with a sound more like the sound of a 100 years ago.

    York, B&S, the new Besson all are more "round" in sound. Probably others too. Some cornets are quite bright unless you play it well and get a mouthpiece to help mellow it. Yamaha Xeno comes to mind (which is funny since the Xeno trombone is pretty mellow).

    Enough ranting. Brass bands use cornets. I would just live with that and play it the best you can - round and smooth. That doesn't mean trumpets should not be used in proper places.

    Moy has the horns transpose from Eb to F at times :clap::clap::clap:

    I asked an Eb horn player if he could play an F part. He said sure, and pulled the Eb slide out and put in the F slide. It was the most out-of-tune I have ever heard him play. Ugh.

    Jim
     
  7. David Mann

    David Mann Member

    Let's have proper names for all instruments. I'd particularly like to resurrect "Bombardon" and "Monstre Bass" for EEb and BBb basses / tubas. ;)
     
  8. Jan H

    Jan H Moderator Staff Member

    "fanfare bands" in Belgium and the Netherlands used to have both cornets and trumpets. In all older music (eg until the 1960 or so) there is a 1st and 2nd trumpet part and a 1st and 2nd cornet part. Usually the cornet parts are more technical, while the trumpet parts are more like "signals". Since the 1980's or so, most pieces have just a 1st, 2nd en 3rd "trumpet/cornet" part, but most bands (especially in the Netherlands) only use trumpets.
    In my band too, we don't have any conets any more since a couple of years (I switched to flugel horn, two other players left), and when we play one of those older "yellow" pieces of music, the cornet parts are played on trumpet. But I agree that it isn't the same at all...
     
  9. Simon_Horn

    Simon_Horn Member

    I don't understand what the issue is? Why are you re-copying parts? Most trombone players should be able to read bass clef parts and most tenor horns can transpose up a tone I would have thought (unless you are talking kids and then it's probably a good idea to re-write it). But in regards to recopying a part because it's labelled trumpet instead of cornet?? If the part was originally in Bb then it just seems like a waste of time??
     
  10. Jan H

    Jan H Moderator Staff Member

    The original question was just about the title of the part, I think.
    I think he should go for the 'trumpet/cornet" label if he's just re-using the part without changing any of the notes.
     
  11. DocFox

    DocFox Supporting Member

    I have heard a lot of "cornet" players want to play trumpet in the brass band. With bands dying, it is my personal personal opinion that if nothing is sacred, then why do it.

    I person emailed me and said he would never listen to my station if I played one more Eric Ball piece. I assume he is gone, but I have stuck to my guns. A few pieces non-traditional, but about 95% traditional brass band pieces. And the station grows.

    I guess if you hate playing cornet, find a jazz band to play in.

    A high school kid showed up with a cornet. The director went barmy and embarrassed the kid. His dad gave him the cornet and gave the band $5000 last year. Oops. The kid never returned and the band director had to eat crow.

    The original question was playing trumpet parts on a cornet. Depends on the setting, of course. Times do change. Some of he older parts that are now played by cornets -- fix it with a bottle of white-out.

    Jim
     
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  13. Anno Draconis

    Anno Draconis Well-Known Member

    Doesn't annoy me, but having played both instruments in wind bands and orchestras (for instance some Berlioz stuff has cornet AND trumpet parts) I would tend to assume that if the part says "Trumpet" then you want it played on a trumpet NOT a cornet. So if you're happy for it to be played on either, just put "Trumpet/Cornet in Bb" at the top of the part.
     
  14. PeterBale

    PeterBale Moderator Staff Member

    . . . unless your name happens to be Armstrong or Oliver ;)

    A lot of old military band arrangements had separate parts for trumpets and cornets, presumably a legacy of the pre-valve trumpets, and if played properly on the right instruments it can be very effective: the trumpet parts may look rather straightforward, but the sound can really cut through the band when in the right hands.
     
  15. db-123

    db-123 New Member

    Thanks very much to all the people who responded. Interesting stories, DocFox, about anti-cornet sentiment in the States.

    I've decided to label the uppermost parts in the "brass band instrument" sets cornet. It's a straight-forward procedure at my end. If inner parts were being played on tenor horns and I had a choice of trumpet or cornet on the top parts, I'd choose cornet, so I'm thinking that it's better to label them that way. A couple of the fanfares are quite florid and probably suit cornet in lieu of trumpet anyway.

    I'll definitely be copying out Eb horn parts; it's good for players of either type of horn to be able to transpose but I want these to be playable as easily as possible with little or no rehearsal, in bad light, outdoors in a howling gale, etc, etc!

    –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

    I'll get busy and mention them on a separate thread when they're ready to go. They'll all be gratis. In the meantime, PDFs of the fanfares in their current form are available (also gratis) to anyone who'd like them. If you contact me at ...

    deebee AT pacific DOT net DOT au

    ... I'll send them straight away. (If you'd like the "brass band" parts as well, say so and I'll send them when they're ready.)



    thanks again – Happy New Year to all!

    David Basden – Sydney
     
  16. Bryan_sop

    Bryan_sop Active Member

    Very much a matter of opinion! Trumpets can play far more than that, and very nicely too! I much prefer playing and listening to the trumpet, but then our cornet section are always being told that we sound like a trumpet section (probably because a fair few of us are trumpeters!)
     
  17. skweeky

    skweeky Member

    most of the time, we play trumpet where it says trumpet and cornet where it says cornet.... Ideally, this is how the composer will have intended it. But as in most cases, personal opinion comes in to it. Your MD may prefer a cornet sound to blend with the instrumentation even if it says trumpet on the part...

    It has never bothered me what it says on the top of the paper. I don't know why it would bother anyone..???
     
  18. DocFox

    DocFox Supporting Member

    Unless you are in a brass band -- where trumpets are not allowed. A trumpet can rip through a band. A load of them (like in a brass band) and you might as well leave the rest of the band at home.

    And turn of the 20th century trumpets had valves. It was just that the composer KNEW that both trumpets and cornets were available. It gave two voices in a concert band (like Sousa's). And heaven forbid the trumpets blew their brains out in Sousa's Marine Band.

    And this discussion has little or nothing to do with brass bands.

    Jim
     

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