Timing of Areas & Promotion/Relegation

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by BigHorn, Nov 11, 2006.

  1. BigHorn

    BigHorn Active Member

    Apologies if this subject has already been raised.
    What does every body think about the timing of the Area competitions. If you are a newly promoted or relegated band and take your place in your new section on 1st January, then the Area contest seems to be sprung on you very quickly indeed. Is it fair that some bands will only have 10 or 11 weeks in their new section before they are measured against their peers in the most important contest of the year.
    Wouldn't it be better to promote/relegate bands straight away after the areas so they have a year to settle in their new section and enter own-choice and entertainment contests to find out the level they need to be.
  2. Baritonedeaf

    Baritonedeaf Member

    Interesting suggestion - at present you have chance to compete in your own section - perhaps to challenge for honours in a number of competitions - often that is just as valuable as playing in the section above... Everyone enjoys playing in a succcessful band.
  3. Anno Draconis

    Anno Draconis Well-Known Member

    I'd agree with this; I think bands that are promoted/relegated should get at least 6 months in their newer section so that (if they choose) they can enter a few contests at their new level. This is not a whinge, but it sometimes seems odd to me that at contests like Pontins bands can compete in a lower section than they will compete at the area. Maybe promotions/relegations should be effective from the Monday following the lower section finals, so that bands get almost an entire contesting season in their new section before the areas come around.
  4. That seems fair to me, Andy. I mean, lower ranking bands in a section at Pontins and subsequent contests then have a fairer chance before the area to succeed in a not so pressured environment and the winners of the finals would be out the way to give others a chance that year.
  5. BbBill

    BbBill Supporting Member

    In Scotland the contest year is from 1st November to 31st October, so we actually get promoted/demoted before yous. This could be alittle unfair, for example last weekend at Pontins,

    1) We were against some bands that in Scottish rules would have been promoted up a section. (it wouldnt have made us into prize winners if they were in 2nd section anyway!) But saying that if following our rules, it could just the same in reverse, we'd playing demoted 2nd section bands, which would prob still beat us!

    2) I was going ask a tuba player to dep with us, but then realised we couldnt use him, cos his Scottish band got promoted, 3 days earlier on Nov 1st, and because of that stupid "same section and below" rule, we couldnt use him and ended up nearly panicking trying to find somebody!

    Basically what Im saying is that every region should have the same rules regarding promotion/demotion and also one set of guest rules so its not different whichever contest you go too! (Maybe the guy who wrote our Scottish rules just likes to be different...!)

    Id prefer promotion straight after Areas too, cos thats what youve earned your win (or 2nd place) for at the areas, (and also to go to Finals of course!). The band would be ready to compete up a section straight away, I think its rather stupid earning your promotion at Areas and still having to compete in same section for 7 or 8 months! But then when would the finals be, it would be pointless getting promoted straight after areas, then doing the section below at the finals 6 months later!! Catch 22!

    I would think most bands wouldnt start working on their area test-pieces heavily till after the New Year anyway, its long enough to get bored of them between then and March as it is!!!
  6. Will the Sec

    Will the Sec Active Member

    L&SC prov tables are out as the regionals results are despatched, calculated on a laptop, so everyone knows immediately (bar the odd appeal or National Finals win) which section they'll be in next year.

    Other areas should follow suit.
  7. DaveR

    DaveR Active Member

    True, but I think the point being made is that even though the band knows they are going to be a section higher in January, it still doesn't get a chance to compete in the new section until just before the area (e.g Butlins in January). If the rest of the UK followed the Scottish system, there would be a chance for bands to play at another contest (for example Pontins) and gain that extra bit of experience of banding at the new level before the most important contest of the year.
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2006
  8. 1st Position

    1st Position Member

    Then what about having the promotion/relegation date as effective after the National Finals?
  9. Charmed

    Charmed Active Member

    Not wanting to start a long, previously, discussed debate - If promotions/relegations were to take place straight after the Area or National, as has been suggested, the 'appeals' system would have to be scrapped. Not only that, but how would you know what section to enter, say Pontins, if you hadn't got enough points from the area to be promoted, but had done well enough to be invited to the Finals? From the area you're in, say, the 3rd section, haven't got enough points to automatically be promoted the following year to the 2nd section, but go and win the Finals? If the above were to be put in place, you would straight away be in the 2nd section, but had previously entered Pontins in the 3rd section.

    Leave it alone I say. The national promotion/relegation is purely based on the areas, not other contests. Otherwise, how come bands are placed in a higher section for local association contests. Is that fair?
  10. HorniKaz

    HorniKaz Supporting Member

    Quite a few bands already compete in higher sections in their local contests. For example, Flixton regularly competed against 1st & 2nd section bands when they were in the 3rd section for areas. I am aware of course, that in some regions, there are very few contests to compete in to gain that kind of experience. But getting back to if a band was promoted immediately after the regionals to gain experience in their higher section. That would surely give them an advantage at Nationals.

    Would there ever be a "right" time???
  11. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    There is a possible drawback for bands that are relegated immediately after the areas ... if concerts have been arranged with a description of the band's status by the hosts, it might be too much hassle getting them all changed. A lot of venues like to get as much information as possible in advance about the shows they are presenting, especially for advertising. Anything printed may then be seen as misleading.
  12. BbBill

    BbBill Supporting Member

    Thats nearly what happens in Scotland, effective from 1 Nov, a month or so after Lower finals and a few days after the Championship Finals.

    Fair point about the appeals system, that need time to work, but am I missing something, how does the English system promote bands? In Scotland, its the 1st 2 that get promoted in section and also go to the Nationals, nothing complicated in that!

    But surely every band that competes at the National Finals would be promoted anyway, (if it was effective as of after the Areas), where would the advantage be? Or is where I dont understand the English promotion system?! :rolleyes:
  13. sparkling_quavers

    sparkling_quavers Active Member

    no, we were at the national finals but have not been promoted.
  14. HorniKaz

    HorniKaz Supporting Member

    When Hoover (Bolton) came 2nd in the 3rd section finals in 2003, there was no promotion either has they had not gained enough points. It IS very confusing :-?
  15. Charmed

    Charmed Active Member

    Oh no, nothing as simple as that in England! ;) Promotion/relegation is based on points. Points that you scored in the previous 2 years added to the current years result. The bands with the highest points over the 3 years get promoted, the bands with the lowest points relegated. This is probably why there are quite a few appeals. We got relegated from the 2nd section in 1999 to the 3rd section in 2000 after having 3 year's worth of mid table results at the area.

    And re the Nationals, the only definite promoted band from this contest is the winning band of the section.
  16. 1st Position

    1st Position Member

    Just because something has been discussed once, shouldn't mean that it can't be discussed again. New ideas, different opinions, changing opinions all have their place, as does reassessing the original debate.

    When Hull City got promoted last year we didn't wait for the best part of a year to compete in the Championship, we went up a couple of months later when the new season started. The Banding movement is often compared to football, so why not have the promotions/relegations effective from the start of the new season, and not half way through it? We have a natural summer break from contesting so why not move (yes, I know they've been in September/October for a few years now) but why not have them as a highlight finale of the contesting season, instead of midway into the following season? Any appeals could then take place before the new season starts.

    Because they have promotion and relegation, seperate from the National/Area grading system.
  17. Charmed

    Charmed Active Member

    So what is the problem? Why do people moan when a band promoted from the following January, plays in the current section at Pontins, if we accept local grading systems as being fair!
  18. 1st Position

    1st Position Member

    No problem, but as the subject has been raised, and not being party to the original thread, perhaps the subject should be aired again. If not, then lets stay stuck in the 19th century. The current way might be the best way, but unless that idea is occasionally challenged then it may be the best way because it is the only way, which is a narrow way of looking at it.

    And whilst contesting does almost happen all the way throught he year (so does football) there are natural breaks from contesting, - the longest one probably being during the summer. It makes no odds which bands play in which sections at some contests because they have got there generally on their own merit. So I have played with a 4th section Band in a Championship contest (and WON!), but have also played with a Championship Band that was graded in the 4th section. Yes, you are quite right in your point that the Areas/nationals are a seperate entity, but other activities have different rules for different competitions and operate the various systems successfully. I personally find it strange that mid way through the contest season, the teams change due to promotion/relegation. If that is to stay, then so be it. We abide by the rules and put up with it, but it doesn't always follow that the way we operate is the best or correct way. Why not try a different way, perhaps having a closer look at Scotland, or Australia to see if there is something the English system could learn from, or adapt to. No harm in looking............... is there?
  19. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    I like the Scottish way myself, but would move the date up even further to October 1st...if not September 1st or August 15th so that it coincides with the Football calendar. The only contest that would be out of whack would be the lower section finals (no Championship final section bands get promoted or relegated).
  20. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    Less confusion & less clutter if all systems were kept as simple as possible. Why do we need a local area ranking system anyway?