Time to weld the bars shut and let the toe-rag rot.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Chat' started by 2nd man down, Jun 22, 2010.

  1. 2nd man down

    2nd man down Moderator Staff Member

    John Venables.

    Killer of James Bulger, freed after only nine years into a life of anonimity, is now on a charge of downloading and sharing explicit child images.

    Seems to me that this (if it wasn't already) is a completely lost cause. The lad is obviously just rotten to the core. Time to lock him up for good, throw away the key and let him rot away. Better still, save the tax payer some money, lets make it an air tight container, and stick him in there until he stops breathing.
    The world would be a much better place without this kind of foul vermin in it.

    Thoughts anyone?
  2. StellaJohnson

    StellaJohnson Active Member

    i dont think there is anyone who would disagree with you!!
  3. Bass Trumpet

    Bass Trumpet Active Member

    This is tricky. My opinion on the case has always been that of attempting to understand.

    A boy does a terrible, terrible thing and is locked away. I think the question we should be asking is 'what has happened to him in the time he has been locked away?' He was deprived of family love and attention at a time when he most needed it. What did we think would happen?

    John Venables did a terrible thing as a child. Failings in his care and rehabilitation have caused his continued inability to be part of a civilised society. There are many failings here, not just two.

    As a loving parent of two pre-school aged boys, my heart goes out to the family of James Bulger. However, my heart also cries over what nine years of incarceration has done to one young man and how it has caused him to act in this way.
  4. geordiecolin

    geordiecolin Active Member

    [devilsadvocate] Has he yet been convicted on the child images charge?! [/devilsadvocate]
  5. Bass Trumpet

    Bass Trumpet Active Member

    Yes, by the Daily Mail...
  6. 2nd man down

    2nd man down Moderator Staff Member

    He hasn't been convicted, however there doesn't apear to be any doubt about his guilt.

    There can be no doubt here that it is the tragically poor upbringing of one or both of the boys that killed James Bulger that meant that they felt able to do what they did. Any child brought up with an ounce of inbred civil decency would not have been able to carry out such atrocities on a little boy. However, the fact is that regardless of whether or not their social programming was their fault or not, they still carried those actions out and deserved to be imprisoned for them. Their parents, and then probably the prison system has failed these boys, but that cannot be put in the way of making sure that someone who now thinks child pornography is acceptable is kept out of decent every day society. I have children, 5 of them, and I don't want the possibility of his type of character coming into contact with them.

    Tragic as it may be in his case, he now needs locking up for everyone's (and his) own good.
  7. nethers

    nethers Active Member

    Yes, a bullet is a far cheaper and more socially responsible solution in this case I feel.

    The importance of learning from mistakes in prisoner rehabilitation and social support is something that needs to be reinforced further, but I am also aware that it can sadly cross the divide...

    ...and then the criminal has more rights, sympathy and financial drain on society than the innocent victim, for whom there is comparatively little support while an army of parole officers and social workers tip-toe around the guilty defending the 'rights' of the criminal who chose to ignore these same rights in someone else when commiting his crime against an innocent party.

    1 - Prevent crime
    2 - Protect and support victims of crime
    3 - Punish the guilty
    4 - ...
    5 - ...
    23854 - Protect the rights and welfare of those convicted
  8. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    Nail on head!...perhaps one of America's largest contributions to world culture (notice I did not say greatest!)
  9. WoodenFlugel

    WoodenFlugel Moderator Staff Member

    While I agree with a lot of the comments here, I do have to pick you up on one comment Crawf.:

    any doubt from who? Its a crucially important cornerstone our legal system that everyone is innocent until proven otherwise - its especially important in our current 'trial by tabloid' society.

    The reason I make this comment is this: we (the public and the media - in particular the tabloid press) need to be really careful about the amount of tub-thumping in Vanables' case, otherwise some smarmy defence lawyer will attempt to use the fact that everyone appears to think he's guilty before any evidence is presented in court as a way to get the case thrown out. It has happened before don't forget.

    Nothing would give me a bigger feeling of satisfaction than seeing Venables' rot in a cell somewhere, but we need to ensure that every opportunity is taken to ensure correct justice is carried out, without the possibility of a mis-trial or subsequent appeal based on a legal technicality instead of actual fact.
  10. 2nd man down

    2nd man down Moderator Staff Member

    I suspected someone would pick me up on that! :rolleyes:

    I fully agree with what you're saying, however in this case the powers that be have decided for whatever reason to allow the detail of the charge to go public. It hasn't been leaked (although rumours about this did abound before the official release of information), it was properly released, so the authorities (you would hope) must be 100% convinced that the case is not put in jeopardy by making this knowledge public. It was that that made me say that I felt there appeared to be no doubt of his guilt, even though the case is still to be heard.
  11. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    I read an interesting article recently (I forget where) in which those charged with the care and rehabilitation of similarly disturbed children (who I think did include Venables and Thompson, though I'm not certain) spoke at length about the ways in which these things tend to flow. One of the most interesting points was that it is generally those who are 'locked away' for the longest periods who do better at eventually becoming well adjusted members of society - because almost uniformly such people come from appallingly dysfunctional family backgrounds. Those who are only in for a short spell return to their families and messed-up family values and the lessons learned are often forgotten as old habits reassert themselves, but those children whose crimes are serious enough to warrant longer-term supervisions are able to completely replace their prior familial antisocial conditioning with a more stable set of values, provided by those entrusted with their care.

    As I recall, Thompson (who appeared a more dangerous case at the time of the crime) has become a successful adult, but Venables (who it appeared was more of a going-along-with-a-dominant-friend part of the original crime) has struggled with employment and drugs problems - and now this.

    I searched for the original article, but didn't find it. However, I did find a psychological report on Jon Venables, dating from a year prior to his release: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article7056013.ece
    It's an interesting read, showing how much progress Venables had made - and also, interestingly, that his family had pulled together cohesively and consistently over the years to aid his rehabilitation.

    Venables committed his first horrific crime in 1993, aged 10, and was released in 2001, aged 18. Now, in 2010, he is 27. I think it's a big stretch to infer that the genesis of his sexual problems here lies in his treatment while incarcerated.
  12. lynchie

    lynchie Active Member

    Firstly, as I understand it, under the terms of his license he would be locked away for life if found guilty.

    Secondly, while generally an empty threat, it disturbs me when people suggest that the response of a civilised society should be to torture or murder criminals. Never mind that the death penalty would almost certainly cost more than life imprisonment, as found in the US. We lock these people up because their actions are abhorrent to us, and yet we feel it would be justified to replicate those actions ourselves? Would it have been acceptable, for example, if a paedophile had raped and killed Venables and Thompson on their way home from killing James Bulger? After all, their lives are apparently less important than the lives of others once they've committed their crime.
  13. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    As mentioned earlier, I think one of the jobs of government is to prevent crime. I feel it is more important to protect the civil liberties of the innocent rather than protect the civil liberties of criminals (e.g. I feel my life deserves more protection being innocent than a murderer on my street block).

    Killing somebody is horrible...but if it prevented a murderer from killing 3 more people in their lifetime is it worth it? What if they were to kill 10 more people, then is it worth it?

    Now step back, is it better to lock them up for life (still arguably unethical as we are taking away their civil rights) than have them continue to kill people?

    There is certainly a slippery slope here, but I still think the judging criteria should be to protect the civil rights of the innocent first.
  14. Thirteen Ball

    Thirteen Ball Active Member

    One question, which I don't think our prison system has ever fully answered.

    Are the prisoners kept confined to be
    a) Punished
    b) Rehabilitated

    If A, one could very forcibly argue that the breathtaking re-offender rate indicates that the punishment is not severe enough to deter prisoners from re-offending.

    If B, one could also very forcibly argue that the rehabilitation process is not sufficiently advanced that prisoners return to society ready to integrate and become valued members.

    What we are left with at present is an unhappy halfway-house between the two, where the unpleasantness of the experience (and therefore the punishment element) is mainly at the behest of other inmates, rather than the state, so lacks any authority on the outside - but where also the rehabilitation element is not taken seriously enough by either the staff or the inmates, nor reinforced heavily enough once the prison term is over, to be properly effective.

    There will always be the hopeless delinquent, who reoffends no matter what, and the psychotic who murders for the fun of it - both of which society must be protected from and to whom no punishment is severe enough and no rehabilitation process will ever get through to, but these are by far the minority.

    Society needs to decide what prisons are for. Only then can they move forward.
  15. 2nd man down

    2nd man down Moderator Staff Member

    You must surely realise that my "make it air tight" comment was rather flippant and not realy what I think should happen?
    That said I am a serious advocate of the death sentance for crimes such as those committed on James Bulger. He committed the most horrific of crimes and got off ridiculously lightly because of his age. Now he is of an age to "know better" and is still embroiled in charges involving some of the most reprihensible actions known in every day society, namely child porn. Yes, I do believe that in this individuals case, now that he appears to have proved himself beyond help (should he be proved guilty), that to end his existance is justified, he clearly has nothing further to add to decent, honest, innocent people except the fear of what he will do if ever released again.
  16. Supermouse

    Supermouse New Member

    Around the same time that James Bulger was murdered, two children, (Dutch or Danish I can't remember which), also murdered a 5 year old girl. These children were back at school within 2 weeks and have gone on to lead "normal" lives.
    While you may indeed be correct in your appraisal of Jon Venables, I do think he was probably it was a matter of when, rather that if that he found his way back to prison.

    Now I am no bleeding heart liberal, but would the Dutch/Danish model have resulted in a more sucessful outcome for Venables and Thompson? After all, was that not the point of locking them away - so they could come out (rightly or wrongly) and enter society?

    How were they ever going to lead "normal" law abiding lives after the childhood they had had?

    Now I can already hear the screams of "What about the victim?" and I am not disregarding this. But if the point of the incarceration of Venables and Thompson was to rehabilitate them - then could there have been another way? - Discuss
  17. lynchie

    lynchie Active Member

    You're a serious advocate of the state killing 10 year old children? Who exactly would pull the switch on that electric chair?

    There's also no indication that his current crime (if he's proved guilty) has anything to do with his previous crime. Quite rightly, his license says that any serious crime will land him back in prison for the rest of his life, but there's nothing to say that this crime is the result of lenient sentencing of him as a child. The fact that Thompson appears to have been successfully rehabilitated into society would suggest that the action taken was correct.

    Unless we assume that those involved in child porn are born that way, it's quite plausible that Venables has become involved because of bad choices he's made since leaving custody, not because he was intrinsically evil from birth.
  18. lynchie

    lynchie Active Member

    I quite agree that murderers should be locked up. It's killing them that I disagree with.
  19. towse1972

    towse1972 Active Member

    People dont rot in cells anymore. They are sent on Offending behaviour programmes, after that they watch TV and play on their playstations whilst eating the goodies that they buy from the prison shop.......:rolleyes:
  20. Leyfy

    Leyfy Active Member

    The problem is there is no *other* way at the moment.

    Oh, and I am *so* glad those dutch/danish kids have had 'normal' lives. Shame James Bulger's family haven't had that luxury, including his uncle who had to identify his body. I'm sure that is enough to give anyone nightmares.

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