The question of relegation

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by Andy_Euph, Mar 18, 2004.

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Should the bottom placed bands at the area be relegated automatically

  1. Yes

    94.7%
  2. No

    5.3%
  1. Andy_Euph

    Andy_Euph Active Member

    As we are half way through the area contests some bands will now be in the position of being relegated to a lower section. However some bands that will be relegated in fact didn't have a bad result but because of previous years results they will go down... my question is this do you think this is a fair system, using a three year points system?

    Personally I feel that the bottom two places at the contest should be relegated, as one the day, they are judged to be the poorest performers in that section. In my opinion that means that the bands who really should go down that year will go down.

    Just interested in what people think of the current system and wether they think it is fair?
     
  2. Dan

    Dan Member

    No way!! Think of bands that have just been promoted from say the 2nd to 1st section. If that was the case all the sections would be like a yo-yo. No one would have the opportunity to settle down in their new section and find their feet.

    I certainly would not like to be demoted or promoted on the say so of one adjudicator at one contest.

    Sorry, just my opinion!!!!
     
  3. Naomi McFadyen

    Naomi McFadyen New Member

  4. drummergurl

    drummergurl Active Member

    no, i think that the system they have now is a very good system!! whoever thought it up was ver yclever! and just because one band may perform very badly on one occasion doesnt mean that they should be relegated. they may be the best band in the country, but every band has its down points and they may just perform badly at one contest (say the areas) and they get relegated for it! wot woud that say about the relegating and promoting system??
     
  5. brasscrest

    brasscrest Active Member

    Looking at this issue from far away (and with no contest experience), it seems to me that you should not move a band between sections based on the results from a single contest. There are too many factors that could affect a single performance.

    However, it also seems to me that a band that is improving should not be penalized for previous years' poor performances. I don't know the details of the relegation system, but the original post in this thread seems to indicate that even a band which improves its position from one year to the next can get relegated based on poor performances in prior years. Perhaps the formula for determining relegations (and promotions) could be altered to take into account improvement in score over previous years, not just positional results.
     
  6. sunny_jimbob

    sunny_jimbob Member

    I think the system as it is works fine, even though we may fall foul of it this year - the last two years we got a 16th and a 17th place. After the 17th the conductor left, the band rebuilt, a few new players (including myself) came in, several came up from the junior band and a former conductor returned. We came eigth this year - a massive improvement, as I'm sure you'll agree, but not necessarily enough. We're waiting for official confirmation. Ho hum.
     
  7. JTKBrass

    JTKBrass Member

    Tough issue this one, we're having a debate on it on our own website forum at the moment as well.

    I don't believe the newly promoted bands should be given any advantage over bands in the section, or given time to 'find their feet' as that's unfair to the bands who have already 'found their feet'. What if the newly promoted bands are the worst two in the section ? They should go back down. If they're better than bands already in the section, they should stay up. Finding out who is better than who is the tricky bit though, but whatever method is used it should be on a level playing field with all bands treated equally.
     
  8. Mike Saville

    Mike Saville Member

    Definately not. Have 1 bad day would get you relegated :evil:

    Might be possible if there were several adjudicators at the area contests but as some of us only get 1, I would not think it fair to relegate a band on 1 performance and on 1 adjudictors opinion - otherwise we all might just as well draw straws!
     
  9. brasscrest

    brasscrest Active Member

    This is a perfect example of my earlier point - a band that has had a large, positive change might still get relegated. So the current system may need a tweak - perhaps something like any group that improves more than 5 places is immune from relegation that year.
     
  10. NAS

    NAS Member

    I think the current system is good... but one thing I would change is bands being allowed to appeal to stay up (unless there is a very good reason ie... the band being unable to compete for a while due to unforseen circumstances, but they had succeeded in rebuilding the band to compete and would like to stay up to do so). I think that the bands that are relegated have to take it on the chin... I know that if my band (Rainford) were relegated then I would take it on the chin and work so hard to be back up within a year.

    But thats the only thing I would change...
     
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  12. Bassment Jinx

    Bassment Jinx Member

    no

    If there was more than one Area contest per year then it could be considered but seeing as its based on one performance, automatic relegation is way too harsh.
     
  13. Tuba Miriam

    Tuba Miriam Member

    Apart from the obvious inequalities of basing promotion and/or relegation on only one performance, if it were the policy to automatically relegate the bottom band(s) on the day, what do you do with bands that withdraw or do not enter at all for some reason? Do they become immune to relegation because they weren't last on the day? But then why did they withdraw?

    Looking at it another way, bands that withdraw or do not enter are given last+1 points - so would they get automatically relegated, rather than the band that came last on the day? Or does the band that came last on the day go down in addition to the withdrawn bands? What if this amounts to several bands and the section below is already 'full'?

    Surely, it's better that bands are given the opportunity to prove some consistency? This could be chaotic ... what if a butterfly flaps its wings in Asia ... ?
     
  14. Dave Euph

    Dave Euph Member

    I think simply the system of judging bands on the outcome of one contest is always going to be unfair no matter how you tackle promotion and relegation. But the current system especially since improving bands can still be sent down (my band being a prime example of this) highlights this a lot.

    I think Andy has a point, since, for example, you don't get "grace years" in the football league. Personally I think if a band does well enough to come 1st or 2nd (aka qualify for Nationals) in their section then they should definately be strong enough to cope in the above section to avoid relegation for the first year.

    The problem with the current system is that bands who consistently come high, but not 1st (or 2nd), get promoted and many of them severly struggle - particularly from 1st to top section.

    I don't think bands should be given a chance to "settle" in a section, if you are promoted up a section then that should mean your band should be good enough to play in that section. If you are not, then you can go straight back down again.

    It's a cruel system, and I think the results should really be based on more than one contest per year to be more accurate, but I think it would provide more balance between the sections. Plus, the appeal system could still exist happily for those odd occasions ...
     
  15. Borfeo

    Borfeo Member

    I think this is going to split down the middle, depending on which of the following statements you agree with

    "Contests are their for the development of bands, to improve standards"

    "Contests are their for competition, as sport"

    If you agree with number one, then you can see the point in having a years grace, it helps establish a band at the new level, however it does penalise bands who are already established.

    Personally I believe contests are "sporting" events these days, I think that the days of doing things for the betterment of the movement are long gone, it's all about winning.
    Therefore I believe that if you aren't good enough to stay in the section with two years of average marks and your own placing then you should go down, very simple and effective. Contests are an ugly business, there is no way to make it nice for all parties in my opinion
     
  16. Di

    Di Active Member

    Following my PM, just another thought. Again, can't be 100% sure but ..... I think I remember someone said to me that last year only 1 band got relegated from the championship to the 1st (and looking at the preview article on 4barsrest looks to be the case) because the next two bands were tied on points. Don't know whether the same would happen in the lower sections, but if this is in the case ..... like you say, fingers crossed, you may survive!!!!
     
  17. Trigger

    Trigger Member

    No way should a band be relegated based on the results of one contest. It's not even a question of whether or not a band that has just been promoted has an unfair advantage over other bands already in the section. The fact is that any band can have an off day regardless and this should not mean automatic relegation. And while we are on it, the same applies to automatic promotion based on one result. It's just not a true reflection of a bands capabilities.
     
  18. WhatSharp?

    WhatSharp? Active Member

    I agree that relegation should be based on the last 2 years + current, however I also feel that the whole business of "appeal" should be scrapped. Ok tough if you get a dodgey result, however thats life and thats contesting, I have experienced this since the band I was with at the time got relegated form 1st to second after a fairly solid performance causing the conductor to leave, however we just accepted it.

    What annoys me more is bands getting promoted on appeal!, this has happened on occasions and it just makes a mockery of the whole thing. If two bands are to go up, two bands should go up, end of story.
     
  19. Tuba Miriam

    Tuba Miriam Member

    I agree, contests probably have more to do with sport than music, but continuing that analogy the promotion/relegation system we would like to see would depend upon whether we wanted a 'cup' or a 'league' system in operation. One bad result and you're down is, effectively, turning it into a knock out competition. Also, I doubt whether the contest ethos has changed substantially from the past; I suspect it was always about winning and if the movement benefitted as a result then that was a welcome secondary victory.
     
  20. Wonky_Baton

    Wonky_Baton Active Member

    I think the rules are fine for the bands that turn up to the contest but what about the bands that withdraw and don't compete! I think they get the lowest position but is this punishment enough. Maybe these bands should be automatically relegated subject to appeal!!

    Problem could be that bands could purposely miss one year in order to get relegated to compete in a lower section the year after. I am sure something could be worked out to overcome this though!! Its a question of balance and the system seems to work fine. The northern area is over 3 years results but i dont know if the other areas follow the same criteria.
     
  21. timbloke

    timbloke Member

    Judging by the rate in which players and MDs move around bands, I think it is sometimes harsh to base the results on 3 years contests. We've fallen foul of the system this year, two 7s and an 8. not brilliant results, but by no means bad results. And considering this year we had a number of new (since last contest) players - Solo trom (me :D ), solo Euph, Sop, Flugal and not least a new MD, plus a few more elsewhere in the band, is it fair to penalise the band straight away? 8 out of 11 was not bad, especially considering the difficulty from the conducting point of view of the test piece.

    now all of us who have joined a good 1st section band are no longer in a first section band. Still as good a band, but without the prestige.

    Personally, i'm prepared to accept it and look forward to destroying the bands in the 2nd section next year... but it could take a few years to bounce back up, and if we have a bad result in the 2nd section through dodgy adjudicating... what then?
     
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