The 2008 North West Regrading debate

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by Frontman, Feb 23, 2008.

  1. Frontman

    Frontman Member

    Can anyone explain how Dodcross Silver can be in the 3rd Section?
    According to past results, Dobcross came 6th in the Championship Section in 2006 and withdrew from the Championship Section competition last year. If it is because players have left the band and they are rebuiling etc I cannot see the differance between them and the situation that YBS found themselves in when David King left. They too, lost quality players, but still have had to recruit and rebuild and remain in the top section. There may be a very simple answer apart from loosing players, but I feel that the question should be asked. According to the Dobcross web site it appears that the most comments from individual players is to win the National Finals in 2008 with Dobcross. There may be a little problem with winning the Area first. I cannot see the Oldham and Saddleworth bands being happy about it.
  2. flugtastic

    flugtastic Member

    its because dobcross completely reformed the band and then regraded themseleves. this was taken of the average of the players ie they had so many previous 4th section players and so many champ section players which has all been taken into concideration and they have averages a 3rd section band. if that makes sence.... it does to me lol
  3. ploughboy

    ploughboy Active Member

    The results will show if they've been dropped back into the right section.
  4. MattB

    MattB Member

    Knowing some of the players from the past I'd say they're probably about right. A lot of youngsters in there with some old heads. Same thing happened a few years back when Oldham Brass 97 merged with a youth band. Look how they turned out.......!
  5. AndyCat

    AndyCat Active Member

    So with just 11 bands in the top section, how many go down/come up then?
  6. Frontman

    Frontman Member

    NW Area.

    That is a very interesting point Andy. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the National Exec Committee suggested that 12 bands would be required to compete in all Championship sections.
    This worked ok for a few years until the Yorkshire Area Committee increased their section. In fairness to the Yorkshire Committee there was really nothing else that they could have done, good quality bands have the right to be promoted and relegated.
    However, I have tried to read the National Contesting Rules but unfortunately they are being updated according to Kapital Promotions web site.
    It could be that this year, as a result of only 11 bands being in the section, two bands are promoted and only one relegated, or on the other hand, one band promoted and none relegated.
    Oh that would start a never ending discussion.
  7. Anno Draconis

    Anno Draconis Well-Known Member

    Re Dobcross, there's a similar situation in Wales where Point of Ayr (top section and Wales' rep at the European at least once before they folded) have reformed and been graded in the 2nd section.
  8. andybass

    andybass Member

    i am conducting my local band in the 3rd section at blackpool.i take the area contest very seriously and prepare my bands to the best of my ability.i have been lucky to qualify 4 times in the last 7 years at 2nd and 3rd section levels including winning the finals in 2001 so blackpool is in my view a big band are working hard and gained a good result at preston but when you see top section players playing against you as we have without question at the area with dobcross it makes you wonder. if you need an example take beamaris who did the same thing and were regraded 2nd section and went on to finish 2nd at is hard enough in the north west 3rd section with the national champions usally coming from this area is not the players usual we have the hard working non musicians making poor decisions.
  9. tat

    tat Member

    Re Dobcross
    I thought that bands could only be re-graded if they had been disbanded?? as far as I'm aware Dobcross have never been disbanded and therefore should not have been re-graded.
    I though the system allowed for bands to request a relegation in writing to the area committe, and even then it was at the descretion of the committe if the band was relegated.
    If this had been applied then bands that where relegated from the higher sections could have preserved their status as Dobcross would have replaced at least one bands relegation.

    This makes a mockery of the whole grading system, other bands which have been in the same situation as Dobcross have gritted their theeth and got on with it. Besses and Stalybridge have both been in the same situation, but are battling through the sections to try to steady the boat.

    I know that a number of players are young but from what i can see the majority of them are from Dobcross youth, a 3rd section band. put in an hand full of championship players, then you can see why most of them are looking forward to winning the 2008 national finals on their web site.

    It would be as unfair to place them in the championship as the 3rd section, perhaps the 2nd section would have been more appropriate, which they would have achieved if they had been relegated from the Championship from the no show in 2007 and also by applying for relegation.

    I would expect that if Dobcross make the top three at the areas, then the band which finishes 4th would immediately appeal against Dobcross, as it would appear that the rules have been breeched in them being re-graded.

    The rules at the moment can not be accessed on the Kapitol web site, but if anyone knows different then I stand to be corrected.
  10. towse1972

    towse1972 Active Member

    Bands like beaumaris and Dobcross have been fantastic bands in the past that have fallen on harder times ( Dobx have missed 2 areas). Itis to be applauded that they are attemting a resurgeance!!! Some of their latter day players (who were top section players) are Dobcross through the middle! They may be players that were Dobx before; past Dobx from years back!... My point is this.... 4 or 5 does not a band make! Get with the competition!
  11. Al

    Al Member

    Didn't Dobcross Silver only miss the 2007 Area? They came 5th (out of 12) in the Championship Section in 2006 and have been consistent since 2003 since promotion. I wish them all the best in Blackpool (but not tooo much as my band will be competing in the Third Section too!)
  12. tat

    tat Member

    Pity Dobcross haven'tt taken your advice and "got with the competition" instead looking for a quick fix inthe lower sections.
  13. Fazed Song

    Fazed Song New Member

    Hmmm. It does seem that DobX have cleverly avoided the process of natural selection that we all go through. However we must see the other side of it in that, with the seemingly new band they have there, if DobX were to stay in the top section, they may face 2,3, 4 years of crushing defeats before getting in the right section. This may in turn make moral so bad, that the band end up 'reforming' again.

    Not an easy one this. A drop in section to a band that has hit hard times and almost totally reformed? Yeah I can live with that... 3rd section?? Maybe a bit too far do you not think?

  14. les

    les Member

    I don't understand where the discontent is coming from for Dobx - They are clearly not the band they were, and all the details of the new players standards and previous bands have been submitted to the powers that be, and 3rd section is where they have been re-graded. Why do people have a problem with this??? I understand if it was the same band, but clearly it's not. I wish them well, I think it's wrong to cast a cloud over the players that are there.


    MD Eccles Borough Band
  15. hellyfrost

    hellyfrost Member


    Calm down everyone!!!

    I'm contest secretary at Dobcross Silver. Yes, we're in the third section. Yes, we've been regraded.

    I hope this helps some of you people who seem to have such a problem with us being Third Section.....

    When I attended the North West Regional Committee meeting back in November last year, I spoke with Mr Bates there and at length over the phone as to how we go about changing sections. Our MD had asked that we withdraw from the Championship Section as we would not be able to play the music with the players we had. Simple.

    Once we'd been removed from the Championship Section, we were then able to apply for entry into whichever section our MD saw fit for the players we have. Hence, Third Section.

    We did this, and the Committee looked at the players we had, their ages, and the bands they'd played for previously and it was decided that the band were in fact of a Third Section Standard. I might also point out that the Regional Committee were given the opportunity to come and listen to the band in rehearsal to ascertain a grading, however they did not.

    The Band have done a lot of work to get to a position where we can go to the area again.
    And we finally have a near full line up of players and it's taken a LOT of effort to get here.

    If anyone has any more questions as to why we're in the Third Section, please do go right ahead and ask me.:)
  16. mikelyons

    mikelyons Supporting Member

    I have one word to say to Dobcross band - Resurgam - (and I, for one, wish you the very best of luck.)

    It's always hard when a band fails for whatever reason and it's always brilliant when a band is saved from annihilation.

    Good on yer DobX.!:tup
  17. Beesa

    Beesa Member

    I think one school of thought suggests that a band should find its natural level by withdrawing/relegation or competing and staying or relegation.

    But anything is better than losing another band.

    What if Dobcross went to the Fourth Section and pipped Eccles for a place at the finals and promotion. Would you be so charitable then?

    In any case I wish Dobcross all the very best.
  18. les

    les Member

  19. Heather

    Heather Member

    Firstly I want to say 'Good Luck' to Dobcross. I know they've gone through a bad time and its great they've managed to rebuild the Band , albeit to a lower standard. As others have said 'its better than losing yet another Band forever'.
    But.....I also understand the other side of the coin. What I dont understand is how the Comittee were allowed to decide what section they play in!! Surely it stands to reason that you want your Band to win and get to the Finals etc so you're going to make sure you enter a section where you are going to have the ability to do that!
    Surely this leaves it open to anyone to pull out of their section , have a few player changes and then regrade yourselves into an easy section.
    I can just imagine the conversation ' Well, looking at our players we're probably 2nd section..but, hey , lets tell the regional comittee we're regrading to 4th then we can win a few'.
    I'm sure this didn't happen at Dobcross Band but its understandable that people will start thinking.
    Good Luck to all in the 3rd section ..... the results will be interesting.
  20. towse1972

    towse1972 Active Member

    And good on you! People are scared of a little competition it would seem. I for one will be there to cheer you on! :clap: