Tam O'Shanter's Ride to the Photocopier

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by Sam Atherton, Oct 18, 2004.

  1. Sam Atherton

    Sam Atherton Member

    Before everyone starts posting the obvious reply to this - I've already read the copright fact sheet, I know that the photocopier is evil, that if I use it for any reason I'm stealing and all you lovely composers/ arrangers/ publishers out there will starve. I understand and I agree and I behave myself and don't do any illegal copying and then...

    I order our test piece for the areas (Tam O'Shanter's Ride). When it arrives I check all the parts are there, and there are only 3 solo cornet parts. I contact the publisher to see whether this is right, and discover that they ship 3 parts as standard. Now, as far as I'm aware, a standard brass band has 4 solo cornets. In fact, the piece requires 4 solo cornet players to achieve the split parts. So we're a part short of our areas test piece and it's illegal for us to make a copy so that all our front row players can take their music home and practise. This applies to all third section bands with a full complement of solo cornets. Is it unreasonable for me to find this slightly annoying, or should I just go off and work on my rotation system??
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2004
  2. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    It's a bit of a grey area, and open to interpretation, however I would see this sort of situation as being covered by the "fair dealing" (or whatever it's called) clause. I would certainly be prepared to argue a case for it.

    I've often had the same thing with percussion parts, where the part clearly requires more than one player to cover all the notes, but only one copy is supplied as "standard".

    I'm not disputing the fact that to make photocopies is illegal, and in most instances morally wrong, however I occasionally think that publishers have only themselves to blame for the widespread mis-use of the photocopier ...

  3. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Well-Known Member

    Most enlightened publishers now put in 4 parts, but this is a recent development and the 'old' tradition of 3 copies in a set rose from the time when the conductor needed one and there were two solo cornet desks.

    I agree it's annoying, but the 'proper' procedure is to buy another part (if they will sell you one).

    Beware of quoting the 'fair deal' agreement as (unless my information is out of date) this is not a blanket scheme and only applies to educational establishments - and then only to publishers who have signed the deal in the first place. It certainly was never meant to cover 'extra' parts.

    I sympathise!
  4. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't dream of questioning your expertise, however, quoting in part from the tMP Copyright Fact Sheet:

    'Fair dealing’ is a term used to describe acts which are permitted to a certain degree (normally copies of parts of a work) without infringing copyright, these acts are; Private and research study purposes. Performance, copies or lending for educational purposes. Criticism and news reporting. Incidental inclusion. Copies and lending by librarians."

    I would argue that:

    1) One instrumental part out of a band set could be reasonably considered only "part" of a work.
    2) Home practice could be considered a fair interpretation of "private ... study purposes"
    3) "Copies and lending by librarians"; most brass bands have a librarian, don't they ??

    Again, I'm not claiming to be any kind of expert in this field, nor am I encouraging people to engage in illegal and immoral acts; I'm just reading it as I see it. If I'm wrong, then I think the tMP Fact Sheet might need some further clarification in this area.

  5. euphoria

    euphoria Member

    And if they don't - then what???
    Do you have to buy a new complete set? :shock:
  6. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Well-Known Member

    Dear Gareth,

    I'm also not claiming to be an expert :D but was on the Printed Music Committee of the Music Publishers Association when the 'Fair Deal' Agreement was drawn up. It could have certainly been up-dated since that time.

    But certainly, in those days, it only applied to MPA members and then only if they want to be part of the scheme.

    'Part of the work' (in those days) meant something like 'up to a quarter of the score' (for class study and that sort of thing) and certainly did not cover parts (in this case, the solo cornet part is 100% of the part! If you see what I mean).

    Even then, I think it was mandatory to ask (or tell) the publisher you were doing the copying. If what you were copying was available for sale, they would certainly have the right to sell it to you!

    As I say, this may be old news and perhaps the TMP page is not clear.
  7. BoBo

    BoBo Member

    I used to be involved with a youth band, now anyone who has done this will know that parts and youth have a way of separating themselves from each other! Hence this is a big issue.

    I recall when we checked that it was ok to copy parts for home practice and that there was a clause that said 75% of a "set" had to be originals. Can anyone substantiate that?
  8. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Well-Known Member

    All the band publishers I know WOULD sell the part! Some may not even charge for it.

    (Please don't shout at me, I'm only trying to help!):rolleyes:
  9. Incognito

    Incognito Member

    Its quite common in orchestral sets to not get a complete set. You are supposed to buy the extra ones to make up the number for the line up you have available.

    I have a set on my desk from Musica Rara thats just like that.
    Effectively a sample set of parts plus a book for the harpsichord part.

    However, with a brass band being a fixed line up its not unreasonable to suggest that you get a full set of parts to allow practicing, even if you ned up with only two stands on the platform for the solo cornets.

    Given the price they charge for the score and parts its even more odd you don't get four included!
  10. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    But 100% of the Solo Cornet part is only around 1/18th of the whole work, depending on how many percusion staves are in the score ... ??? (If you see what I mean!)

    [Damn; there goes another split hair !!! ;) ]

  11. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

  12. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    Indeed. Many bands would only use one stand each for 2nd & 3rd Cornet desks, but most band sets come with two copies of each part. Why the inconsistency?

  13. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Well-Known Member

    I know what you mean, but the Solo Cornet part is not part of a work, only part of a set. You're talking about copying something the publisher can supply. The fair deal was NEVER meant to condone this. (I never agreed to it anyway!!!!!!! It just opens the door to all sorts of misunderstanding!) sic !!
  14. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    Agreed. As far as I can see, much the same thing could be said of Copyright Law in general ... :-?
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2004
  15. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    Got me wondering if visually-impaired musicians are exceptions to the rule. What a minefield area this is too, despite improvements in legislation...... http://www.cotis.org.uk/ontrack46.htm
  16. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure copyright law in general IS actually open to misunderstanding. Talking about the current thread, it is ILLEGAL to photocopy copyright material - full stop - without permission from the publisher. This permission may be specific (you can ask them) or general (if they have signed up to the MPA Code of Fair Practice). There are NO exceptions in copyright law - in other words there is no law that says it's OK to copy so much of a work. There is only the MPA agreement. And that, as I have said, only applies to publishers who have signed up for it.

    I've found it's online, so the best way to check is by going to


    If in doubt, but a copy!
  17. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Well-Known Member

    [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Just found this paragraph in the afore-said code, which, I admit is new to me!:eek: [/font]​

    [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Orchestra and Band Parts and Classroom Sets: In the case of works published either for orchestra or for band (but not for smaller ensembles) or in classroom sets and where the publisher has expressly stated in writing extra parts are not sold individually but only in sets, copies of extra parts may be made provided that the number so made does not exceed a "quarter set" in quantity and provided that the person or organisation making the copies has already purchased one or more sets.[/font]​

    Please note:

    1) it only applies when parts are NOT sold individually
    2) The publishers of Tam O'Shanter are not part of the scheme
    3):rolleyes: Bummer!
  18. lister89

    lister89 Member

    I can kind of understand but as they're only cornets... not basses, cant they share on the satage and make practice copies that must be destroyed after use for individuals to practice on?

  19. brasscrest

    brasscrest Active Member

    Still illegal. Copyright law does not distinguish the reasons for making a copy.
  20. Will the Sec

    Will the Sec Active Member

    Can you hear the adjudicator's remarks at the areas?

    "Quite shocking playing from the front rows of ALL the bands. Anyone woould think 25% of the notes were missing."


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