Surround sound?

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by KMJ Recordings, Feb 19, 2010.

  1. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    How many out there in tMP land have surround sound capabilities?

    Would anybody be interested in surround mixes of Brass / Wind band repertoire delivered in an appropriate format?

    Just wondering.....
  2. andy;-)

    andy;-) Member

    Full quality DVD Audio would be welcome - but would need the right band and good production as a decent hi-fi dosn't half show up poor quality mixing..........
  3. Leyfy

    Leyfy Active Member

    I do.

    Full DTS on my system.... yup, would be interesting to hear.
  4. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    Should be interesting to hear, especially from the seated position of the listener. What would be routed through the rear speakers?
  5. simonium

    simonium Member

    The possibilities of simple stereo are rarely exploited efficiently so I won't be indulging just yet. Having said that if someone was prepared to loan / give me a Krell / B&W multichannel system I would be prepared to be entirely objective about it...
  6. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    I'm thinking in terms of ambient surround rather than gimmick / it'd be about attempting to be more 'in the venue' for want of a better description.
  7. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    I'd be interested in an expansion of what you mean if you have the time? :)
  8. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    Are you thinking about using one of the cluster mics the Beeb are using? :rolleyes:
  9. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    Nope....I'm not a particular lover of Soundfields....although the (cheaper) tetramic has had some decent writeups....there are plenty of different ways of generating surround ambience.

    Andy above is quite right in the fact that it'll take the right ingredients...particularly the venue...I'm involved in some preproject discussions that involve DVD video some of which may be suited to adding the extra dimension....
  10. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    I've only got one convincing 3D brass recording and it isn't surround sound in it's purest definition ... Passage by the Empire Brass Quintet. The technology used to create that pseudo effect could be put to good use for band recordings.
  11. yoda

    yoda Member

    Full surround sound mixing, while its been around for a while, is still not used well, by most. Esspecially where music is concerned.

    Jean-Michelle Jarre tried and released an album mixed in true surround sound, but this quickly disappeared into obscurity. I know of very little else, and there is hardly anything one would call "main Stream"

    Why for example has no one ever utilised this format for something that would benefit it. Spem in alium by Thomas Tallis for example, or Drumming by Steve Reich. Both would sound amazing on a surround system as it would deliver the intentions of the original compositions and their use of antiphonal effects in the compositions.

    I am not sure that anything normally listened too from in front of the listened would benefit from surround sound mixing, but might be fun to play with :) All i can imaging is a little reverb and ambiance coming from the rear speakers, but the inclusion of the sub can certainly enhance the sound (and feel) of a band recording, but full surround sound systems are not the only ones to employ subs.

    Interesting topic

  12. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    Yep - which is the point I was trying to make about being 'in the venue' more rather than the 'oh look someone's setting a firecracker off over my right shoulder'

    In a nominal band recording, there's not much LF going on....most of it comes from concert bass drums.

  13. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

  14. yoda

    yoda Member

    I have also found that the odd BBb bass pedal notes can also generate a few LF waves too. Which is what i mean by feeling it.

    I am usually disappointed by some of the so called better brass band recording companies products. Get a quiet passage of music, turn up the volume and listen to the sound of frying chips.... :) A little noise in their data stream me thinks, which is totally avoidable with a little care and attention. I also have issues with them having far too much reverb in their mixes.

    Makes me wonder sometimes.

    I tend to record as dry as possible (makes editing easier IMHO) then put a little reverb on the mix after editing. That way, you get an honest representation of the band sound, and really, that is all a recording should be. I never did understand the obsession with recording in big empty rooms, to try and capture the natural reverb. Tried it once and found the editing very difficult, so from then on, i used smaller, flat sounding rooms with mush better results.

    Would be interested to hear others thought

  15. yoda

    yoda Member

  16. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    Indeed....just so long as they're sanctioned by the composer :biggrin:

    The noise thing could be dependent on the gear they're using...some of it is inherently noisy...but, as you say, it's depends what it is you're hearing.

    The reverb thing is down to the Producer. There could be a few reasons for it - family sound, papering over the cracks and so on. At the end of the day, if the client doesn't like it they don't have to sign it off....

    Can of worms ;)

    There's no one answer, as I'm sure you know. I much prefer rooms to be nice, rather than having to manufacture them, but then recording a CD in Durham Cathedral that has a reverb time of several years would be less than useful. The big room thing isn't necessarily about capturing natural reverb tails as such, but big ensembles need big rooms.....or you saturate the acoustics....a brass band needs space to 'breathe'.

    Editing with reverb tails needs more care and attention as you've got to match them, but I don't find it an issue.

    An honest representation of a band sound I agree an extent....but it depends on who and what you're working with. There are times where you can generate a detailed balance and there are times where you shouldn't. Client expectation is critical - bottom line is you won't sound like Black Dyke unless you are Black Dyke - and there are occasions where you need to generate a more sympathetic balance....and the room can play a large part in that.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2010
  17. simonium

    simonium Member

    Certainly! One of my major interests outside of banding is high end, esoteric hi-fi. One of the main problems that I have encountered in listening to systems that is some instances cost in excess of £100K is that, digitally at least, the quality of recording can be shown up to be embarrassingly poor. Not just in terms of compression, but also in terms of soundstage, both sideways and from front to rear. A truly great system has the ability to vanish leaving the listener in a totally absorbing and convincing acoustic world. It is curious that in my experience vinyl, by and large, does this much more effectively than digital media. Too often I find that there is too much generality in a recording and a wall of sound rather than clearly discernable "channels". Apologies for my ham-fisted way off attempting to describe this.

    What I meant in my initial statement, probably incorrectly, is that true stereo separation, and the appropriate care taken over it by producers in general is too often lacking. This is not to say that nobody does it, but it is increasingly unusual. The most common problems are either far too little separation or grossly too much, where you might find for example, a hi-hat on the extreme right of the soundstage and other drum kit sounds more centralised, or even on the left.

    My father is a Beatles fanatic and prefers the remastered mono albums to the remastered Stereo versions because the stereo treatment has not been applied in such a way to improve the recording.

    I would certainly be interested in hearing band recordings via surround sound The multichannel systems are gradually becoming tolerated in high end audio circle, but then again CD is still regarded as the cheeky young upstart so there's a way to go yet.
  18. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    By definition, then, you'd prefer something recorded with, say, a Blumlein pair rather than a 'manufactured' image? (Although it is possible to get close with a multimiked approach, of course). Do you mean you find the image too diffuse with a lack of localisation?

    There's a bag of questions and associated variables here that can be addressed by recording technique (e.g. the difference between using Blumlein Fig 8s vs Tree vs ORTF vs pan pot mono).

    I'll pop in the next time I'm in Falmouth :)
  19. simonium

    simonium Member

    A lack of localisation is certainly a common problem. In contemporary music (non band or orchestral) it is perhaps not so bad, but I do find most (not all and I certainly cannot comment about your recordings) band CDs frustratingly one dimensional. I do try and resist the audiophile's most glaring flaw which an appreciation for the equipment and not what it is relaying, but every now there comes an album which is do poorly produced you can't help but grimace.

    As for Falmouth please pop down - at the moment the sun is shining gloriously! Hitch a lift with Kelly and Garry when they're next down!
  20. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    I'll be down shortly sister lives in the garage at Treluswell Cross...

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