Sibelius First Question

Discussion in 'Computer Corner' started by DocFox, Jan 23, 2015.

  1. Mello

    Mello Active Member

  2. Anno Draconis

    Anno Draconis Well-Known Member

    It's possible that earlier versions of Sibelius don't handle the transposition of a BBb tuba part in treble clef correctly for playback (out of the box, at least). In 6, it's fine, but I seem to remember having problems with it in older versions - the software didn't like having to play something two octaves and a tone lower than written, it seems that 2 octaves was the most it would cope with without doing some manual fiddling with creating special instruments. For a while in Sib 3/4 I had BBb parts that sounded an octave higher when played back through Sib than they would sound when played in real life, but because I wasn't particularly relying on the Sib playback I just lived with it.

    This might be the problem? (and I'm deliberately not getting involved in any other arguments...)
  3. DocFox

    DocFox Retired

    Quite right! Chicago is in Illinois so it is an easy mistake. Thanks for the clarification. And the type of tuba would NOT make a difference.

    Interesting note: I live in Indiana, about 15 miles from Illinois (Ill-annoy, nobody pronounces the "s"). Chicago is a 6 hour clear drive (all farm land) from my house. Chicago, like Gary, Indiana (used in a major song in the Meredith Wilson's great musical "The Music Man") are port cities in the midwest via the Great Lakes which the US and Canada share. I think 90% of the population of Illinois lives in, or near, Chicago. Because of the Great Lake "effect" and continual winds (that is why it is called the "Windy City"). When the wind blows, and with moisture from the Lakes, it can snow in amounts that are up to 2 feet deep and it is cold. Yet few people live south of Chicago except farmers. That is why it is easy to get the Chicago Brass Band and the Illinois Brass Band easily confused. I am sure they both rehearse in or near Chicago.

    2011 is not that long ago, but other bands have been really improving. Look at the Top 100 list and there are about 6 US bands. Fountain City, Brass Band of Central Ohio and Brass Band of Central Florida have really come on. NABBA usually has its contest in the midwest (this year in my state, Indiana, which is good for me) because the highest concentration of competing bands is on the east coast or in the Midwest. But there are some GREAT bands that cannot afford to travel (for the Brass Band of the Northwest, it would be close to a 2000 mile trip). Same for The Las Vegas Brass Band, the Salt Lake City Brass Band and many others. You will notice if you listen to my station that I try to play some of their music if they are good enough to record a CD. One band sent a CD and I did them a favor and did NOT put it on the radio station.

    We have gone off on a tangent, but I think clarifications are always in order.
  4. DocFox

    DocFox Retired

    Yes, even my old Sib 5 had an option for and a pre-made Brass Band template. It worked great. I decided to try Sibelius First because it was cheaper than upgrading AND it had 95% of what Sibelius has. But it, to my dismay, did not have a brass band template. I tried to make one and was reasonable successful. Sibelius (and Finale) will do the work. I am forever broke being fully disabled and losing money on my hobby, the radio station.

    But you are right. I really think when I get some more money I will upgrade my Sibelius 5.
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2015
  5. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    FWIW, I've never used the brass band template that used to be supplied with Finale; it was so riddled with errors that by the time I'd tried to correct them all it was quicker to set up my own from scratch. The more recent versions of Finale don't include a brass band template anyway, but it's quite quick to use the wizard. They still don't include instrument definitions for treble clef Euphoniums or basses, however.
  6. DocFox

    DocFox Retired

    I know lots of people like Finale (especially if you input from a midi device), but I found Sibelius a bit more intuitive. The Sibelius template, as I recall, worked great. But I have not done much since my car accident but recover and sleep. I am just now getting back to writing.
  7. fsteers

    fsteers Member

    Weekend warriors might, but any orchestrally trained professional tuba player who was handed a part labeled Bb BC Tuba would recognize immediately that it's transposed, because orchestral, symphonic, and concert band tuba parts do not specify pitch or clef unless a transposition is involved.

    The sample you posted is NOT A WORLD PART: it's a concert part.

    World parts are not the same as orchestral or concert band parts. That's the thing you either don't get or refuse to admit.

    It's not a matter of doing things differently in the UK than the US. Alfred, Belwin-Mills, Schirmer, Alfred, Cimarron, TRN, Barnhouse, Lillenas, Boosey, Rubank, Shawnee, Southern, Amstel, and Schott—all of which are American publishers—as well as most other publishers who provide world parts provide them IN ADDITION TO concert band parts because world parts are notated for transposed Bb BC or transposed Eb BC, and specifically label world parts as "world parts" in order to differentiate them from concert parts.

    If you're suggesting that Canadian and Australian orchestral, concert, and wind symphonic tuba players primarily play or are taught treble clef, a quick perusal of the required scales for tuba (and euphonium) listed in Canadian Royal Conservatory of Music's examination syllabus and the samples in the Australian Music Examinations Board's Tuba Orchestral Brass Series - Grades One and Two catalog is sufficient to paid to that notion.
  8. DocFox

    DocFox Retired

    Is this tiresome or what? I appreciate the extreme effort you went into to help clarify things. Tubas in Concert pitch BC have no problems with 5/4 or 6/4 tubas (except my old house payment was less).

    Who would have thought that a simple question would end up being a master class in transposition. Thank goodness for the autosave function. I fell asleep twice trying to thank you for your hard work! If we had used an organized syllabus for this discussion, we could have had university credit for it. Thanks for all the research and examples you gave for anyone who was confused and wanted to learn more. You worked very hard.

    Certainly, this turned into the more than a simple question, but a good example of what can happen when good minds come together. Thank you!

    Through all this, I think I have decided the best thing for me to answer the original question, is to upgrade my Old Sibelius Program. The template for brass bands seemed to work well. Thanks again for the discussion.

    Last edited: Jan 26, 2015
  9. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    I don't think that's an entirely accurate definition; when we purchase a brass band arrangement from Warner/IMP in the UK, we get additional parts which are described by the publisher as "world" parts. They include parts for 'F' horns, as well as bass clef concert pitch parts for baritones, euphoniums, tenor trombones and tubas. Bear in mind that the concert pitch tuba parts still have to labelled as "Eb" or "Bb" in order to differentiate them, since the parts are not always unison. We don't get "transposed bass clef" parts. Bizarrely, we also get a bass trombone part transposed for Bb treble clef.

    In other words, the "world" parts are provided so that players can play with the band who were not trained to read in traditional brass band notation, which isn't quite the same as your definition, although your definition works for concert band sets published in the US. Therefore a more accurate definition of "world parts" might be "additional parts provided in alternative transpositions/clefs which are not standard for the ensemble in the country of publication".

    Of course, I accept that I could be accused of being pedantic ... ;)
  10. stevetrom

    stevetrom Well-Known Member

    this part should be burnt immediately !
  11. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    All it does is mislead the 'helpful' cornet player handing out parts into giving you a silly part that you'd rather not have on your stand - because obviously bass clef concert couldn't be your first choice for legibility...
  12. Feel My Rath

    Feel My Rath Member

    Try playing in a concert band with a helpful flute player handing parts out. I'm lucky if my part even says trombone on it half of the time!
  13. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    I used to play in a concert orchestra, generally playing light orchestral repertoire, and we sometimes used to use cornets as well as trumpets, depending on the repertoire. I lost count of the number of times the librarian gave us the horn parts, simple because they said "Corno" in the top left corner ...
  14. Feel My Rath

    Feel My Rath Member

    That sounds familiar. This whole discussion has reminded me of our bass bone player and I trying to explain to some of our woodwind players in the bar one night that trombones are both transposing and non-transposing instruments depending upon the clef they're written in. I've never seen so many confused faces.
  15. Bbmad

    Bbmad Active Member

    One agrees.
  16. Bandsman1

    Bandsman1 Member

    Surely this is about the pitch of the instrument and it's tuning note? Playing with open valves or closed position will give you the pitch of the instrument relevant to a piano. That said....A bass trombone is still a Bb instrument is it not?
  17. 2nd tenor

    2nd tenor Well-Known Member

    A Bass Trombone is now typically a Bb instrument but in the past it was a G instrument and I've heard of them in G/D and F too (in Orchestras). Bass Trombones are non transposing as their music is written in bass clef concert pitch. If you play a G instrument rather than a Bb then for the same pitched note on the written music then your chops and slide position will be shaped and placed differently (than on the other pitched instrument).
  18. DocFox

    DocFox Retired

    Yes, all trombones and euphs (BBb basses) are concert pitch IF played in bass clef. Think about it, in reality, all instruments can be written in concert pitch, but they are not done so. Eb Tenors, Bb Cornets, Bb Fluegels, Eb basses are all transposing. Your idea of what note do you tune to is a good example go how to think about it. To tune to Bb, cornets, baritones and Fluegels play "C" written.

    So do trombones written in treble clef. Eb instruments are usually up a 4th or down a 4th (major or minor depending on whether you are transposing up or down).

    In a symphony, "A" cornets are often used. Bassoons in bass clef are in concert pitch. Often a xylophone is written using a grand staff (in concert pitch). Tympani are written in concert pitch in bass clef. In a marching band/drum corps the tenor drums are written in treble clef with 5 of each, all tuned a minor third apart. Bass drums are in bass clef and again a minor third apart.

    That is why I think Sibelius and/or Finale are a good investment if you do a lot of work. You can write it in concert pitch and both programs will transpose the parts, whether writing for brass bands OR symphony orchestras. I personally like directing from a concert pitch score. C, C#, F transposed is often C, E, F# (transposed). Concert pitch makes it easier for the MD to find out if it is published incorrectly OR played incorrectly (you would be surprised how many errors are made in published parts).

    People like Eric Ball, Philip Sparke, Lovatt-Cooper, John Williams, Richard Rodgers, Sousa, Karl King, etc were (and are) more than just musical geniuses.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2015
  19. Pauli Walnuts

    Pauli Walnuts Moderator Staff Member

    True but nobody plays on a A cornet and same with all the F trumpet parts. I also know many players who don't use a C trumpet when written either - simply transposing. Same with trumpet in E - that depends on what immediately precedes it! (I will often use a D trumpet but if not enough bars rest to change, it gets done on whatever is in my hand!).

    Nobody on here will be surprised by the number of printed errors - simply check the errata threads prior to each major contest!
  20. 2nd tenor

    2nd tenor Well-Known Member