Sibelius First Question

Discussion in 'Computer Corner' started by DocFox, Jan 23, 2015.

  1. DocFox

    DocFox Retired

    Sibelius First, Sibelius 5, and my Finale version is so old it will not run on an Intel based Mac (and I do not want to spend the money to upgrade it)
  2. fsteers

    fsteers Member

    Hmm … I haven't run across any publisher—American or not—that calls parts written at concert pitch "world parts." The publishers I'm familiar with (Alfred, Boosey Int'l, Hal Leonard, Hickeys, Cimarron, SA, Belwin/Mills, Curnow, Kendor, TRN, etc.) use "world parts" for transposing Bb bass clef and Eb bass clef, e.g,Alfred Music World Parts.

    And, unless things have changed in the last 2-3 years, with the exception of youth bands, NABBA requires bands to play from Bb TC parts in contests, so buying music with "world parts" doesn't make sense from either a music-reading or an cost standpoint.
  3. DocFox

    DocFox Retired

    This was supposed to be a discussion about Sibelius. World Parts have Eb Sop, Bb Cornets, Bb Flugel, Eb Tenors, Bb Baritones (usually TC), Bb Euphs (BC), Bb Trombones (BC), Eb Tubas (BC) BBb Tubas (BC). Although the Euphs through Tubas are listed as Bb, they are really in concert pitch. Bb is used because open valves or 1st position plays Bb. Like you said, no one publishes parts, world or otherwise, in concert key for every instrument.

    I just wanted Sibelius to play TC BBb Tuba down 2 or 3 octaves where it SOUNDS, not where it is written. Did that make any sense? The last piece I bought was "Those Daring Young Men and Their Flying Machines". It had both sets of parts.

    In the US, many players cannot read TC parts for Euph through Tuba. In an orchestra, such parts are in bass clef. Often US bands the MD or someone with transposing talent (or good with Sibelius or Finale) will re-write the Euph down to Tuba parts into bass clef. It is illegal technically. So is photocopying music so it can be marked up, but most bands do it anyway.

    How a piece is written and how it SOUNDS are two different things. I wanted Sibelius to "play" the score how it should sound, not necessarily how it is written.
  4. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    I think I'm going to gracefully back out of this discussion, because I have a nasty suspicion that we may be talking at cross-purposes somewhere. Correct transposition for TC Bb basses is to write up two octaves plus a major second from the desired concert pitch, with a key signature shift of +2 sharps (or -2 flats); therefore in your latest example, to get the first note (low 'B') in the lower stave (which I assume is supposed to be concert pitch) the corresponding note in the upper stave for Bb bass would have to be a C#, with key signature of two sharps. If you don't accept that this is correct, then I don't understand where you are coming from.
    Slider1 likes this.
  5. 2nd tenor

    2nd tenor Well-Known Member

    When we talk to someone face to face there's a chance of misunderstanding, over the phone is slightly worse, by email or text slightly worse again, and then add in both american culture and american english and it's not at all surprising that mis-undertandings arise. Typically we have surprisingly good communications with our american cousins, occasionally it doesn't work out but you tried and IMHO the forum is stronger for that.
  6. Bbmad

    Bbmad Active Member

    2T, you surprise me, your posts are usually of an extremely high quality, yet I can't help but think this one is a little, well, pointless. Still, everyone has their off day.
  7. DocFox

    DocFox Retired

    Actually, you are correct. TC Bari parts are transposing. I did not make that very clear. When they read a "c" they play open and out comes a "Bb". It is Euphs on down that is my difficultly. Actually, I do not think we talking cross-purposes -- rather I think we are filling in each others knowledge. Posting late at night my time is a dangerous thing:confused:

    I cracked some ribs last week in a fall and the pain keeps me up (and sometimes affects my thinking). I do apologize for the mistake.

    By the way, I figured out how to get Sibelius to do what I want. Like everyone has suggested (correctly) -- write the score in concert. Then let Sibelius transpose it. That is fine and what I planned to do from the start. The playback is a work-around. If you would like to know how I approached it, PM me.

    I apologize if I confused OR aggravated anyone.
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2015
  8. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    I'm still not really following you; I don't think I mentioned TC Baritone transposition, but if you understand that, then I don't see how you would be confused by TC Euphonium transposition, as it's exactly the same. As it is also for TC tenor troms.

    If you want another way to think of TC Eb Bass transposition, then it's exactly the same as baritone sax transposition; and TC Bb basses are the same as bass sax.

    Not wanting to appear churlish however the way you deal with playback in Sibelius is of no interest to me, as I don't have Sibelius, only Finale.
  9. DocFox

    DocFox Retired

    You are correct. You have the transpositions right. Just bass clef players are used to playing in CONCERT and not reading TC and transposing (although I do it fine). Everything you said is right. Eb, treble or otherwise is in Eb. Some confusion happens when cornets are called Bb (which they are in) but a Bb trombone IN BASS CLEF plays in concert. Bb bones in TC are transposing.

    Take me for example. I play trombone. I sit at home and our local concert band has a concert on Thursday. The part will be in bass clef. On Friday, in an emergency, the local orchestral calls me - again the parts will be in bass clef concert. Then Sunday comes around and our local brass band calls me to sit in. I would have to read Bb (transposing) treble clef unless they have world parts.

    I am the only one I know in my area outside of a University Professor I know who can read TC Trombone. It rarely happens. In the US, Euph on down is almost always in bass clef. I was the only person who could play Eb alto bone in my University Trombone Choir - not even the professor could. What REALLY confuses US players (which is easy if you read TC) for bass clef players is Eb Tuba.

    NABBA (North American Brass Band Association), the brass band organization in the US/Canada for amateur contesting bands does not make bands play Eb tubas. They play transposed parts in bass clef on a BBb tuba. NABBA allows 4 tubas, and they can all be BBb. Now the top bands such as Fountain City Brass Band, Brass Band of Central Florida -- actually I think all the top division bands play Eb tubas. But lower division bands will play 4 BBb tubas.

  10. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Historical accident. Exactly what kind of historical accident is less clear, but what I wrote on the first page of the thread you linked to is still the extent of my understanding on the subject:

  11. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Last time I looked (2008 ), the Chicago Brass Band were all on big 5/4 or 6/4 type CC tubas.
  12. fsteers

    fsteers Member

    No, they're not. Bb BC and Eb BC parts are transposing. World parts are supplied for ensembles that follow the Franco-Belgian, and Dutch harmonie and fanfare band tradition, which employ saxhorns, which are TRANSPOSING Bb and Eb instruments. If world parts were in concert pitch, why do publishers go to the effort and expense of providing a separate "world part" since the normal parts are already in concert pitch?
  13. DocFox

    DocFox Retired

    Yes you are correct. Eb, in BC is transposing. That it why many world bands (including the US) have such a hard time with Eb Tuba parts. Another note, trombone TC is transposing, trombone BC is concert, not in G.

    Thanks for the clarification.

    Note: This could be a master class on transposing for brass bands! ;)
    BTW, no one in the US learns to read Euph down to BBb tuba in TC. And few can play Eb tuba.
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2015
  14. fsteers

    fsteers Member

  15. DocFox

    DocFox Retired

    NABBA doesn't care. 4 tubas is fine. But the very best want to compete on the world stage. Fountain City Brass Band has won the last two years in a row and has been invited to the UK to play. They show up with standard instruments. Another note, Chicago Brass Band won 3 times in a row -- which by rule is the limit (cannot compete for a year). Since then they have finished near the bottom of the Championship Division.

    I played tuba (well Sousaphone) in High School and University marching band because I was big enough to carry it and big enough to fill it up with sound. I simply cannot imagine a 6/4 tuba. But for awhile, here in the US they were the rage. I think mainly because it gave a big sound with less practicing. But they are extremely expensive and used mostly in orchestral works. Brass Bands -- not sure they made sense. With 2 baritone, 2 Euphs, 3 bones, and 4 tubas that easily offsets 10 to 12 cornets.

    My thought - be a musician and learn your instrument. If asked to play another, learn it! Our HS Orchestra had no string bass player. I volunteered. Everyday after school I practice either the euph or bone (Sousaphone in marching season) and string bass. I live 3 blocks from school. I didn't leave the practice rooms until they made me. In two years I made "all state" orchestra (a big deal back then) on the string bass. My dad thought I had a girl friend and was 'being friendly" with her until he talked to the MD.
  16. DocFox

    DocFox Retired

    Is the first part a question? You gave a GREAT, GREAT example. Some could read the TC parts and other the BC parts. They call the tuba in bass clef "Bb" although it is in concert pitch. The reason is that playing open, you play the Bb overtone series (Bb, F, Bb, D, F and on up) which in TC is C, G, C, E, G and on up (which transposes to the bass clef overtone series).

    Wow, what a great example!
  17. mclaugh

    mclaugh Member

    Yeah. it's a great example … of just how clueless you are.

    If you actually bothered to LOOK at the samples posted, you'd see that key signature of the tuba part that isn't marked "World Part" is Bb and the one that's marked "World Part Tuba in Bb Bass Clef" is in C and it's written a NINTH higher than the sounding pitch because the Bb BC part is TRANSPOSED.
  18. DocFox

    DocFox Retired

    Well, resort to name calling? Have I been anything but polite? Really. Yes, it is a ninth. But I can tell you, if you gave that to a orchestra trained tuba player, they would be off a step. Here it is from another source (8notes):


    (click to make bigger)

    Notice the tuba and piano are both in concert pitch. I don't know why you are so worked up. Like in many things in this world, it is done differently in the UK than in the US (or other parts of world). I am reasonably sure Canada, Australia, NZ play in TC. Not sure what the other European bands do.

    But I do not understand being attacked. I am a nice guy. I will go away now.
  19. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    I admit to being confused by Fsteers examples. I'm aware that in some parts of the world there is a system of writing for Bb tuba transposed but still in bass clef. We once had a visiting Tuba player from Malta who played Bb bass but had been taught to read transposed parts in bass clef. But the parts he read (I had to write some out for him so he could play with us) were transposed up a major 2nd from concert pitch, not a ninth. As I understand it, the primary reason for having Bass Clef parts transposed for Bb is so that players who have learnt to play on a CC tuba can read a bass clef part and use the same fingering system on a Bb. I've also once seen a tuba part transposed for Eb bass in Bass clef, presumably for the same reason. But on that basis, the ninth transposition doesn't make any sense. :confused:
  20. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    I think you are confusing them with the Illinois Brass Band, who have won two NABBA hat-tricks, 1996-8 and 2000-2, but now compete in the 1st section. Chicago have only ever won NABBA once, in 2004, but placed 2nd in 2008 (on which occasion I helped them out as I happened to be in town over the contest date and had a connection there), 2nd in 2009, and 3rd in 2011. Results since for them haven't been as good (don't know why), but I really don't think that it's the type of tuba used that is behind that. And 2011 is not that long ago.