Should Missing Instruments affect an adjudication

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by GingerMaestro, Mar 24, 2006.

  1. GingerMaestro

    GingerMaestro Active Member

    If you are playinh in a contest and you happen to be missing a (lets say) Soprano
    There are no real major sop solos in the piece and after a previous year when a band got slated for supposedly playing the sop parts on Bb, you decide to leave it out.

    You go on stage and play a quite good performance, not good enough to win but good enough that you are all pleased with the way the band played and the conductor is happy too.

    Everyone you see, tells you you played well and what a good performance you gave

    Results time comes and you hear the first six places and you go off to collect your remarks only to find you have been placed last and have been slated for not having a soprano.

    Is this right If the part is not thier and does not effect the overall performance of the piece then should you be marked down for it. With alot of band struggling for players at the moment not all bands can fill the seats esspecially in the lower section and they may not have the players to put in the missing parts

    What do you think

    I think the bands should be judged on the instruments present on stage and not the ones who aren't cause lets face it that band with no sop had the best sop on the day it didn't play any wrong notes or have tuning problems or anything
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2006
  2. DaveR

    DaveR Active Member

    On the whole, I agree. However, if there is a sop solo in the piece of music and you don't have a sop, I wouldn't expect to beat a band that did have a sop......

    I conducted a band of 15 at the L&SC areas last year in the 4th section. I had only one trombone, 3 basses, and 6 cornets in total. And we still beat 6 other bands :biggrin: :clap:
  3. Rapier

    Rapier Supporting Member

    Of course you should lose marks! Or you could just choose to leave out tricky parts by not having them played. Oooh difficult Solo Horn part, I know, let's not bother with a Solo Horn then. We had to move players around to cover the parts. The Flugel player moved to Sop and I moved from Horn to Flugel (not very successfully either). Should we have left out the Flugel? (anybody that heard me would probably answer, yes!)
  4. BigHorn

    BigHorn Active Member

    I agree you should lose marks, but I've played in more than one contest where a band has gone on to win by leaving out the 'hard' bits.
  5. DaveR

    DaveR Active Member

    That's a slightly different issue though to my mind. If the sop part is played in the first movement and missed out in the 2nd movement because it is too hard, then yes, the band should hemorrhage points. However, if the sop part is omitted for the entire piece it is obvious that the band can't fill that seat and shouldn't be penalised for it - although as I said above, if a band can put that part in I would expect them to be higher up the points than the band that doesn't.
  6. PeterBale

    PeterBale Moderator Staff Member

    I think that the adjudicator should take some account of anything not being played, be it brass or percussion. On of the problems with closed adjudication is that, if something is not there, he doesn't know whether the player is absent or has simply omitted the bars in question, so it is probably harder to decide how severe that penalty should be.

    With percussion, I personally feel that an MD should be able to identify the key elements and make sure someone puts it in: having sat through the 1st section at Stevenage, where a number of bands only had two percussionists on stage, those performances which included the tam-tam were much more successful, in my view, than those which omitted it, including the band who used the 2nd baritone player to put it in - and a good job of it he did, too.
  7. Rapier

    Rapier Supporting Member

    You quoted me out of context. What I said (or maybe meant to) was that if the part is too tricky, you could leave it out. Meaning the whole instrument part. I couldn't get the flugel in tune to save my life, but played it anyway. It would have been very unfair if we'd just not bothered with the flugel at all. :)
  8. GingerMaestro

    GingerMaestro Active Member

    This thread is not about whether the part is to tricky or not the piece in question had no major sop entries or solos and the band in question had no sop player sat on stage but still got slated for not putting the sop part in.

    If like DaveR said if the part is not audialble from the start it is obvious that the player is absent and therefore should be discluded from the adjudication as with percussion if a triangle part is not played or anyother part but there are percussionists on stage you very rarely get any remarks about it but if a brass part no matter how insignificant the part is in respect to that piece you get slated
  9. euphybeast

    euphybeast Member

    Not lose points for not playing a part? A novel idea!

    How could a band win by not playing the music fully? Particularly in a test piece situation, imagine how you feel if a band beat your performance but didn't have a sop player. The grumblings in the bar would be worse than ever.
  10. Pythagoras

    Pythagoras Active Member

    There's got to be a different standard for the brass and the percussion because the range of differebnt percussion possibly needed is huge, whereas the same brass is always needed. People are saying it would be all right if there aren't any major solos, but that's irrelevant. A band could then decide to load there front row say and not bother to play an 'unimportant part', or what if you only had 1 person who could play bass trom or 2nd bari or whatever and there part is not that hard, but they are not very good you could just not have that part, its ridiculous. Part of the skill of a band is managing resources, your not going to have 25 players all of the same standard and how you cope with this is part of the skill of an MD (I would have thought). If people are allowed to just miss out parts without losing points you could just pick your 10 best players and just use them playing the 'important parts'. Imagine that 4th section bands with no youngsters on back row learning the trade or no bass players because there all puffers.
  11. GingerMaestro

    GingerMaestro Active Member

    You all seem to have missed the point

    The band in question did not have a player on the part
    It was not a case that the solo was too tricky there were no major solos
    There Was No Player
    There Were No major solos for sop in the piece
    They played quite well and were not expecting to win

    But they got slated for not having a sop player and were placed last

    They could have put the odd part onto one of the front row but the front row were not comfortable enough about doing it after a band got slated for playing the sop part on Bb (even though in that case it was actually thier sop player playing it) in last years area

    So all this about oh we will just put this part here or we won't play that part is irrelevent to this thread
  12. Kiz7

    Kiz7 Member

    I am not sure it is irrelevent to the thread. This is a discussion forum and whilst you can start a discussion with a specific thought it mind, you can't really dictate which way the discussion evolves because to do so would not be having a "discussion". Most of the replies I have read DO seem to be broadly about your question and I am sure if they weren't then the Moderators would have brought them back on topic.

    Anyway, to answer your original question - yes, a band should lose marks if a part is left out completely. if the composer didn't want it they wouldn't have written it. I know that it is impossible sometimes to fill all of the seats but if a band does not have a particular player in a soloist seat (and lets face it there were moments in the 4th section piece that required the sop to be heard so it is definitely a soloist seat) then surely they need to juggle players around to make sure that part is played. Maybe playing three on the front row and having one solo cornet player go on sop would have solved it?
  13. PeterBale

    PeterBale Moderator Staff Member

    Except that, with closed adjudication, it is not always obvious whether the player is missing, or just not standing out from the overall sound.
  14. Pythagoras

    Pythagoras Active Member

    And god forbid that a band would ever pretend not to have a player for the part, so they didn't have to put it in. Not saying that is the case but just pointing out what could happen in a hypothetical case.

    It wasn't the area piece was it? Because both of the last 2 years 4th section had exposed sop parts.

    Where do you stop? Goals scored against a football team not counting because they don't have a goalie?
  15. WhatSharp?

    WhatSharp? Active Member

    Sorry I don't see what your issue is. There was no sop, so parts were missing, so you lose points, you make a choice to go on stage with a missing part I can't see why you have a problem with this. Tell you what, leave the whole band off and then you can't be deducted any points so full marks! WahHey!

    Sorry but this really annoys me when bands come up with this one, and I feel the same should apply to percussion, our band sec had a murderous time getting a third percussionist so that we could do justice to the piece, we had a full band with only 1 dep (percussion) and yet we came lower than bands with half a cornet section (say) or 1 percussionist. I accept the result cause thats contesting ang those bands that were short covered it well (so kudos to them), but to demand special dispensation because your short a player ........

    <edited cause Pythagoras beat me too it...DOH!>
    Put it this way, if a football team went on the pitch without a goalie would they then demand the other team not be allowed to score any goals?
  16. Bayerd

    Bayerd Active Member

    Surely it is the parogative of the adjudicator to do this if he so wishes?
  17. Cyndy

    Cyndy Member

    Hi Martin,
    We appreciate your support.
    They did play well better than some bands with a sop who fluffed it,they expected to be marked down for no sop,but not that far!!!!!!,the funny thing is the adjudicators never mentioned the missing Bb bass, yes we went on stage with no Bb Bass as our only Bb Bass was taken poorly the night before!!!!!!we could'nt borrow as we could not get a doctors note in time. as you say we did not expect to win but we did not expect to come last either, as our solo cornet player played her part bold,strong and note perfect, unlike one or two others who fluffed it big time and modified the sop part for Bb.We will be Back.
  18. Cyndy

    Cyndy Member

    Anyway, to answer your original question - yes, a band should lose marks if a part is left out completely. if the composer didn't want it they wouldn't have written it. I know that it is impossible sometimes to fill all of the seats but if a band does not have a particular player in a soloist seat (and lets face it there were moments in the 4th section piece that required the sop to be heard so it is definitely a soloist seat) then surely they need to juggle players around to make sure that part is played. Maybe playing three on the front row and having one solo cornet player go on sop would have solved it?[/quote]

    We expected to lose points for no sop, we never expected to win or come in the top of the table, but we played very well especialy as it was the 1st contest in 5 years!!!!!
    We would have loved to juggle seats around with only three on the front row,we were unable to do this.
  19. Liz Courts

    Liz Courts Active Member

    I think it's up to the band to make the best of it's resources, and play the piece! I don't see a problem with getting someone on the front row to play the odd sop part, or one of the baritones to play any important trombone bits if there's a lack of players...if the overall result of the piece is good, then the band should do well!

    But on the other hand, in a contest like the regionals where the winners will qualify to play another set test piece, it's probably best, and a lot fairer that a full band wins, because swapping parts around might not be possible next time!

    As a player for 10 years of a band that has always struggled for players, I'm bound to be slightly biased! We only entered local contests, mostly own choice, if we were to need a full band for a set test piece, then our support of the contest would be lost, and people would moan...!

    I believe that it's the taking part that counts. Make the most out of the players you've got, play the piece, and hope for the best!! :)
  20. Rapier

    Rapier Supporting Member

    It's you that seems to be missing the point. :)

    We had no Sop player. So the Flugel player went on Sop, which left no flugel. So I moved from Horn to play Flugel! Having never played it before in my life I was rubbish. Now, would it have been fairer to the other bands, for us not to have bothered with a Flugel (or the Sop) and NOT lost points? Or did we not lose as many points for poor Flugel playing as for No flugel playing?

    Sorry but ALL parts should be played and if not the band should expect to come well down the results (bottom in fact.)

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