Scottish Open / Challenge Shield 2011

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by bbg, Oct 23, 2011.

  1. bbg

    bbg Member

    Pre - Draws made at SBBA AGM yesterday.

    Kirkintilloch have withdrawn from the Open, and it appears that a few "qualifying" bands have declined the Shield invitations - 5 1st section instead of 4 but only two from the 3rd (none of which were top 3 - 4th and 6th/7th if memory serves me correctly).

    Open Draw (26 November)
    1 Kingdom
    2 Felling
    3 Pemberton Old
    4 Blackburn & Darwen
    5 Yorkshire Imperial
    6 Co-op Funeralcare
    7 Dalmellington
    8 Newtongrange
    9 Bo'ness & Carriden
    10 Tongwynglais
    11 Lochgelly
    12 Whitburn
    13 Milnrow
    14 Regent Brass
    15 Marsden
    16 Fishburn

    Shiled (3 December)

    1 Granite City
    2 Queensferry Community
    3 Tayport
    4 Shotts St Patrick's
    5 Arbroath Instrumental
    6 Kirkintilloch Kelvin
    7 City of Discovery
    8 Johnstone
    9 Clackmannan
    10 Dumfries
    11 McTaggart Scott
    12 Perthshire Brass
    13 Broxburn & Livingston
    14 Irvine & Dreghorn
    15 Callander Brass
     
  2. ringa

    ringa Member

    thank god you've posted the line up for scottish open as well. I posted it yesteday and immediately thought I'd be trouble after the Doc Martins contest debacle!
     
  3. bbg

    bbg Member

    I was at the meeting yesterday, so could have posted "live" via my phone I suppose........but waited until the draws were already safely up on the SBBA website.........!

    Enjoy your trip up here, will be around at various times of the day so will likely be in to hear your band play.
     
  4. Paddy Flower

    Paddy Flower Active Member

    The Open field looks like it's got strength in depth with half-a-dozen bands going with a decent shout...

    [TABLE="width: 303"]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl27, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Scottish Open[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl28, bgcolor: transparent"]Co-operative Funeralcare - 11/4 fav[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Marsden Silver Prize - 4/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl28, bgcolor: transparent"]Exchange Communications Whitburn - 6/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Tongwynlais Temperance - 13/2[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl24, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Yorkshire Imperial Urquart Travel - 9/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Pemberton Old Wigan DW - 10/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl28, bgcolor: transparent"]Co-operative Milnrow - 14/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Felling Brass - 18/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Kingdom Brass - 20/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Bo'ness & Carriden - 28/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Fishburn - 28/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Blackburn & Darwen - 33/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Dalmellington - 50/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent"]Lochgelly - 100/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Newtongrange Silver - 150/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Regent Brass - 350/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
     
  5. Paddy Flower

    Paddy Flower Active Member

    The Shield looks a little more like a field of haves and have nots, HOWEVER the bands as always range from confident First Section challengers to plucky Fourth Section outsiders...


    [TABLE="width: 303"]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl26, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Scottish Shield[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Johnstone Silver - 11/8 fav[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Kirkintilloch Kelvin Brass - 3/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Clackmannan & District Brass - 4/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Arbroath Instrumental - 5/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Broxburn & Livingston - 11/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]City of Discovery Brass - 18/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Shotts St Patrick's Brass - 33/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Granite City Brass - 40/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Irvine & Dreghorn Brass - 66/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Perthshire Brass - 250/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Tayport Instrumental - 350/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]MacTaggart Scott Silver Loanhead - 350/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Dumfries Town - 500/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl24, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Queensferry Community Brass - 500/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl24, width: 404, bgcolor: transparent"]Callander Brass - 500/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
     
  6. Chris Kirk

    Chris Kirk Member

    Perth

    I'm surprised that this thread has not been re opened, since the Scottish Open is tomorrow.

    We Regent Brass, leave on the Midday train today for the 6 hour trip and our first time in this contest.

    What can we expect? Other than the fact Paddy reckons we have two hopes.....
     
  7. Statto

    Statto Member

     
  8. Kofi

    Kofi Member

    Hopefully you'll find a friendly and well run contest in a hall that I think is perfect for brass bands in terms of sound and layout. If you arrive early enough you'll see some of the youth bands taking part, hopefully our youth band performance is not too 'out there' for the judges! I'll be there as a supporter having passed the youth band on to someone younger and better looking!

    If you're looking for a decent pint, I would recommend Christies. Lots go to either the Ship, Foundry or Sandeman as they are the first pubs you see when you leave concert hall. However, if you go round the back of the hall and up past the back of the multi-storey car park you'll find Christies on the corner of Kinnoull Street. Decent pub with good beer and good service in my experience. I think they do food too, but there are loads of places to eat in Perth.

    Hope you enjoy your visit, and Statto is right, it's freezing! I'm in Alyth, and we've had sleet most of the morning... Good luck for the contest!
     
  9. Gorgie boy

    Gorgie boy Member

    One would fancy a little flutter on Kingdom Brass at those odds............
     
  10. Paddy Flower

    Paddy Flower Active Member

    Here we go, best of luck to all...

    [TABLE]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl25, width: 76"]League win pay-out[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl28, width: 285"]Scottish Open[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl24, width: 55"]Latest[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl24, width: 49"]From[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl26"]2.03[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl29"]Exchange Communications Whitburn[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]15/8 fav[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]6/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl26"]2.92[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl29"]Co-operative Funeralcare[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]11/4[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"] [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl26"]4.67[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl30, width: 285"]Marsden Silver Prize[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]5/1[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]4/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl26"]5.33[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl30, width: 285"]Tongwynlais Temperance[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]6/1[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]13/2[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl26"]12.31[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl31, width: 285"]Yorkshire Imperial Urquart Travel[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]14/1[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]9/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl26"]12.31[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl30, width: 285"]Pemberton Old Wigan DW[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]14/1[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]10/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl26"]16.84[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl30, width: 285"]Kingdom Brass[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]20/1[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"] [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl26"]22.07[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl29"]Co-operative Milnrow[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]25/1[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]14/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl26"]29.09[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl30, width: 285"]Blackburn & Darwen[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]33/1[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"] [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl26"]49.23[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl30, width: 285"]Fishburn[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]50/1[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]28/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl26"]58.18[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl30, width: 285"]Dalmellington[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]66/1[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]50/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl26"]160.00[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl30, width: 285"]Felling Brass[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]66/1[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]18/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl26"]106.67[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl32"]Lochgelly[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]150/1[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]100/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl26"]640.00[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl30, width: 285"]Bo'ness & Carriden[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]150/1[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]28/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl26"]160.00[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl30, width: 285"]Regent Brass[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]250/1[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]350/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl26"]640.00[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl30, width: 285"]Newtongrange Silver[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]500/1[/TD]
    [TD="class: xl27"]150/1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
     
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  12. Flumpet

    Flumpet New Member

    Results courtesy of 4BR

    Scottish Open
    Draw: Pre-drawn
    Commence:c14.00hrs

    "Music for Battle Creek" - Philip Sparke

    Adjudicators: Dr Robert Childs, Professor John Wallace & Philip Sparke

    Result

    * Judges placings are in the order of Wallace, Sparke, Childs

    1. Tongwynlais Temperance (Philip Harper) 2/2/1 = 5
    2. Co-operative Funeralcare Band (Michael Fowles) 7/1/3 = 11
    3. Exchange Communications Whitburn (Ian Porthouse) 8/3/2 = 13
    4. Marsden Band (Glyn Williams) 3/6/7 = 16
    5. United Co-op Milnrow Band (Marieka Gray) 9/4/8 = 21
    6. Kingdom Brass (Andrew Duncan) 14/5/4 = 23**
    7. Yorkshire Imperial Urquhart Travel (David Nesbit) 1/10/12 = 23**
    8. Dalmellington Band (Archie Hutchieson) 5/12/6 = 23**
    9. Pemberton Old Wigan DW Band (Mark Bentham) 12/8/5 = 25
    10. Fishburn Band (Alan Morrison) 4/11/11 = 26
    11. Felling Band (Stephen Malcolm) 11/7/14 = 32
    12. Regent Brass (Alan Duguid) 10/9/16 = 35**
    13. Lochgelly (Allan Ramsay) 6/16/13 = 35**
    14. Blackburn & Darwen (Nick Shephard) 13/14/9 = 36
    15. Newtongrange Band (Nigel Boddice MBE) 15/13/10 = 38
    16. Bo'ness & Carriden (Bede Williams) 16/15/15 = 46

    ** in the event of a tie, Philip Sparke's placing takes preference for final placement

    4BR Best Instrumentalist: Martyn Patterson, Euphonium (Tongwynlais Temperance)

    Scottish Youth Championships

    Development Section
    Draw: Pre-drawn
    Commence: c9.00hrs

    Adjudicators: David Childs & Ian Porthouse

    1. Campbeltown Juniors (Jamie McVicar)

    Kinneil Youth Band, Scott Gardner, 1
    Kings Park Youth Brass, Alan Pratt, 2
    Peebles Junior Band, Daniel Williamson, 3
    Arbroath Instrumental Youth, Ann Ness, 4
    Perth & Kinross Senior School, Robert McDonald, 6
    Loanhead Youth, Alan Fernie, 7
    St Margarets Brass Livingston, Mary Downs, 8


    Senior Section
    Draw: Pre-drawn
    Commence: c11.55hrs

    Adjudicators: David Childs & Ian Porthouse

    1. Scottish Borders Youth Band (Alan Fernie)
    2. Perthshire Youth (Jason Blyth)


    Congrats Tongwynlais and Martyn Patterson on a great result, however some of the placings from the judges seem a bitt odd....Ton got 2,2,1 (which shows consistency), but Co-Op had 7,1,3, Whitburn 8,3,2...Fishburn 4,11,11 and Lochgelly 6,16,13
    Were the three adjudicators on the same box together, or three seperate boxes? Surely they had some sort of brief and a plan of what to listen for and what not to listen to (so to speak)
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2011
  13. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    It was Open adjudication & the three judges sat at their own tables in a row. The point about inconsistency I'm not qualified to comment on.
     
  14. simonium

    simonium Member

    7. Yorkshire Imperial Urquhart Travel (David Nesbit) 1/10/12 = 23**

    ??? It would seem someone's criteria is utterly different to the other adjudicators!
     
  15. Flumpet

    Flumpet New Member

    Ah ok, so since it was open adjudication then surely they would be able to compare notes in between performances, or is that the whole point of having three judges?

    I'm not qualified to comment on the inconsistencies, but just trying to open a debate. I guess the problem here is that we expect the three judges to have the same criteria, and thus have roughly the same outcome...but on the other hand, on lets say Strictly Come Dancing, the 4 judges don't always have the same results (I don't tend to watch it, but I'm aware that one of the judges (the grumpy one) always tends to give lower scores thatn the other 3, so maybe this is the same here)
     
  16. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    Although I was in front of them, I didn't detect any note comparison between performances (not that I was going to check on them lol!). People, no matter how qualified they may be, are going to differ in some aspect in their critique from another. My winning band differed from both 4BR and official results. I was also surprised by Blackburn's lowly placing.
     
  17. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

  18. davidquinlan

    davidquinlan Member

     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2011
  19. Statto

    Statto Member

     
  20. Gazabone

    Gazabone Member

    I really think publishing results in this way (multiple adjudicators) showing their independantly arrived at conclusions is very healthy and may help drive up the standard of adjudication. However it is disconcerting for well respected judges to arrive at such divergent results and does open the question of why do we enter in the first place, especially considering the adverse impact a "duff" result can have on a band.
     
  21. towse1972

    towse1972 Active Member

    Nice 1st post.........sigh
     
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