Rule change re guest players

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by BigD, Nov 16, 2003.

  1. BigD

    BigD Member

    Dont worry, It's just a hypothetical!

    How about deducting half a point for each guest a band uses in a contest? This would help give credit to bands who use a full compliment of their own players, without (hopefully) making bands withdraw or not enter contests if they had players missing.

    Views please.
  2. winterman

    winterman Member

    Not sure on that one.. IMHO maybe with the Championship section, which has such a diverse range of players, that would be a good idea, with the likes of Pontins many top bands could probably have turned up in their own right with the numbers of them helping out other bands (we borrowed a Bb from Brighouse).

    But I think IMHO that this would really put the pressure on those bands lower down who have to borrow to make a full band. Wouldn't this put un-due pressure on these bands who struggle to get to contests without guest players?

    Flame pit is open and primed with coal.. I have my fire extinguisher at the ready! :D
  3. Moy

    Moy Active Member

    I am glad we don't allow guests for the Scottish Area contest.
    If they were ever to change the rules re promotions/demotions - introducing more contests, then I would not allow guests to be used.
    So easy to make a lower section band sound so much better by just adding a few corner men/women :wink:
  4. craigyboy1

    craigyboy1 Member

    I think the guest rule is intended to assist bands who for various reasons cannot turn out a complete set of their own players.(Work commitments and fewer players in circulation)
    I don't think bands use guests through choice and leave their own players sitting in the audience :!:
    By using guests they are able to attend contests and support the brass band movement.
    If a band has to use guests to attend a contest, they are already disadvantaged by:
    1.Not having the regular player/s for said seat/s available.
    2. Having a guest/s who most likely can only attend limited rehersals.
    3.Having to pay a player/s to guest.

    Why penalise them further :?:
  5. BigD

    BigD Member


    So are you saying that a fourth section band who only have (for arguments sake) 2 Trombones and 3 on the front row would not gain an advantage by getting in championship section class players? The contest would then be in danger of finding the bands with the best contacts (or most money!) and not finding the best band. We need to encourage bands to find / keep / or train their own players, not to rely on guest players all the time. The only time we get a true reflection of bands progress over the year is at the area where guests are not allowed.

    (Edited because I dont know how to work the quote thingy yet!)
  6. ploughboy

    ploughboy Active Member

    I Don't know of any contests were a 4th section band can borrow from the top section. ALL borrowing of players is done in the spirit of banding.

    Bands get comments for adjudicators saying "not a big sound" etc. etc. there not going to keep supporting smaller contests, and they would inturn decline also, We'd end up with two or three contests a year and no variety!

    I think the rules of borrrowing are fine the way they are. As long as everyone continue's to use them properly.

    And, I was thinking I know very very few bands that have a full set of players, everyone it seems is short of a BBb bass or a back row cornet (even fairey's are seeking second euph!!), so to penalise bands for wanting to try seems a little harsh. I know every band would wish to have a full team at every contest/concert but sadly it's not always possible!
  7. BigD

    BigD Member

    Think the rules must be different up here then, as lower section bands regularly have top section players playing with them.
  8. Moy

    Moy Active Member

    Here here. All too often I have seen that happen. Nobody is complaining about genuine needs for guests ie. Illness etc but I feel it's wrong to strengthen your band just to try and win a contest and this happens and we all know it does.
    Rules in Scotland are different.. 4th section bands can play any section guests......think it's wrong and it wasn't always like that.
  9. craigyboy1

    craigyboy1 Member

    If you take an average band and guest Roger Webster and Nick Hudson. Then at the contest you will have an average band with two top corner men.
    A guest or two no matter how high their quality cannot win a contest on their own. In fact if they are head and shoulders above the rest of the players than they can stick out like a sore thumb.
    I may be a little nieve but I am not aware of too many bands constructing all star brass ensembles using guests and winning contests. I am not saying this has never happened but I think the majority of guests are used for genuine reasons.

    Why penalise the majority to punish the minority :?:

    Good healthy debate though :D :D
  10. Aidan

    Aidan Active Member

    [cough]certain championship section bands at the brass at the guild contest in preston this year[/cough]

    edit: so it didnt say "bras at the guild" ;)
  11. JessopSmythe

    JessopSmythe Active Member

    I'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong but as I understand the rules on borrowed players a band may borrow up to 4 players who must be from their own section or a lower one. The only exception to this is the 4th section, where bands can borrow up to 2 players from the 3rd.

    It is possible to get around this by getting your borrowed players to sign for your band and transfer back to their own after the event but there are restrictions on how many transfers a player can make in any 12 month period
  12. BigD

    BigD Member

    And having two top corner men is not an advantage?
  13. BigD

    BigD Member

    Just checked the rules for Scotland. Here is the relevant bit:

    2. Where either one or two guest players are permitted, these may be from bands in any section. Where three guest players are permitted, two may be from bands in any section but the third must be from a band in the same section or a lower section (or, in the case of bands in the 4th Section, from a band in the same section or a band in the 3rd Section). Where four guest players are permitted, two may be from bands in any section but the other two must be from a band in the same section or a lower section (or, in the case of bands in the 4th Section, from a band in the same section or a band in the 3rd Section).

    What do you people from over the border think?
  14. craigyboy1

    craigyboy1 Member

    I get the feeling that you have suffered as a result of other bands using guests :?: Apollogies if I'm wrong :oops:
    If a band has a winning performance in the pipeline, the addition of two top corner men is certainly an advantage. (Iciing on the cake stuff).
    If however the band is poor then it will still be a poor band with two top corner men. Not a contest winning combination, it will sound like a poor band with two great players.

    I do agree that bringing in guests for seats which are not empty to enhance your band is unfair to other bands and just not cricket, but, I don't think penalising everyone is the answer.
  15. Bob Thompson

    Bob Thompson Member

    I may be wrong here, but reference transfers, my understanding is, if you sign for another band, you cannot then return to the original band for a period of 6 months?
  16. BigD

    BigD Member

    No. We actually won the Borders Entertainments at the weekend with our own players. We had one dep on percussion playing in one piece because it needed SIX percussionists! Can't think of a band which has six of their own.
    We've actually done very well this year playing with our own players, so it's not sour grapes, just trying to stimulate debate!

    Apology accepted!

  17. aimee_euph

    aimee_euph Member

    not fair really, i helped blackburn out mainly 'cause their solo euph was really ill, and in hospital, so i helped out,

    Don't think it would be fair to deduct points, especailly when i'm a 2nd/3rd Section player too.
  18. sharpnote

    sharpnote Member

    I agree!