Registry Chaos!

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by IanHeard, Sep 18, 2008.

  1. IanHeard

    IanHeard Member

    Courtesy of 4BR...

    "The question of National registration rules raised its controversial head in Birmingham on the weekend, with the spectre of something of a domestic registration squabble now seemingly set to be played out in Scotland over the coming weeks.
    The Scottish Co-op Band took to the Symphony Hall stage with a percussion player in their ranks, who allegedly, had not met the requirements of the Scottish Brass Band Association Registration rules to play at the contest.
    However, as the organisers of the British Open run their contest on British Registry rules, the player was allowed to perform, even though they did not have a current Scottish Registry card to their name.
    North of the border there is a 28 day waiting period any player must serve before they can play for a band at a contest, whilst this does not apply in England.
    The Scottish rule was brought in a few years back, and as one angry player told 4BR, the decision could have serious repercussions for Scottish banding.
    "The rule was brought in a few years back and all Scottish bands know where they stand with the signing of players. Without any discussion it now looks as if that rule has been overturned. The Scottish Registry has become a laughing stock and so too has the Scottish Association.
    They added: "A precedent has been set that makes a mockery of our rules, by people who should have known that they had no authority to do so. There’s going to be one heck of a stink over this when we get back, with people demanding to know what on earth has been going on. What rules apply for Scottish bands now?"
    4BR understands that no official objection to the player playing on stage was made at the draw after Contest Contoller Frank Hodges explained the situation to the band representatives.
    "The British Registry rules apply at the British Open and so there was no rule broken in our opinion. We made sure people were informed of the situation but there was no objection made."
    What this now means for Scottish banding registration is unclear, although 4BR understands that the matter could well be addressed at the next meeting of the Association in October. "

    Clearly the case for one set of rules and one single British Registry made plain for all to see!
  2. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    Maybe I'm missing something, but whats the problem? :confused:
    Wales operates a seperate registry too - but so what? As long as everyone knows and abides by the rules for a particular contest, why does it matter what colour registration card they've got, or where it was issued from?

    We hear so many complaints about registrations and rules getting in the way of bands, its nice to hear about the times it works in their favour for a change. The BBBR rules about new registrations are designed to make it easier for people, so how can that be a bad thing?!
  3. tinytimp

    tinytimp Member

    I managed to perform at the Scottish Open a few years ago, being borrowed by an English band, with a Welsh registration card. I wonder which rules applied then?!

    I may be missing something here, but if the Open is run to British Registry rules, then what was the issue with the Scottish Co-op player? Scottish and Welsh bands play in British Registry rule contests all the time and I have never heard of anything like this being raised in the past.
  4. IanHeard

    IanHeard Member

    Yes you are missing something!
    The rules of the British Open were not broken, but it would appear the Scottish registry rules were.
  5. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    yes, I saw that too, but it wasn't a Scottish contest.
    you've summed it up yourself.....
    The rules of the British Open were not broken.
  6. IanHeard

    IanHeard Member

    Ignore the British Open aspect of this thread and concentrate on what this potentially means for the Scottish Association and it`s member bands.
    A Scottish band has allegedly opted out of the rules it is supposed to abide by, what do other bands north of the border do now, follow suit or stick with it even though they might miss out on a player for an important contest.
  7. Owen S

    Owen S Member

    The "angry Scottish player" should get down off their high horse, in my opinion. Each contest is run by its own rules, and I'm sure there would rightly have been more of a stink if Scottish Co-op were prevented from using that percussion player when an English or Welsh band would have been allowed to do so.

    The situation with the Scottish association rules being different to those in England and Wales is a bit peculiar, but it can work just fine as long as there is a level playing field at each individual contest.
  8. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    errr.... no?!
    If you do, the article on 4br and this discussion become meaningless because the band in question only allegedly opted out of "the rules it is supposed to abide by" for the British Open.
    Afaik the only rules you're supposed to abide by for the British Open are the British Open rules, and everyone stuck to them.

    Forgive me for being cynical, but the deafening silence on this subject from Scottish banders suggests to me that there really is no major issue (or chaos), and it seems to be just one band that have got their knickers in a knot over nothing.
  9. JTKBrass

    JTKBrass Member

    That's because everyone in Scotland is discussing it here.
  10. andywooler

    andywooler Supporting Member

    Somehow, the whole concept of making music is totally lost now in this introspective world of banding.
    The movement is dying on its feet and yet we persist with processes that have their roots back in a totally different age.
    Maybe Morris Dancing isn't such an odd hobby after all.
  11. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    touché :clap:

    seriously though, I can't get my head round why people seem to want to make it harder for bands to get on stage at contests. As Mr Wooler once famously said during SCABA registration discussions (and apologies for any minor misquote!), its easier to get through passport control at Gatwick than onto a contest stage......
    surely that's a backwards step?
  12. WoodenFlugel

    WoodenFlugel Moderator Staff Member

    Correction Alex - one player of one band.

    This really is a non-story, a real storm in a Denis Wick "S". As you say, the rules apply to the British Open, and they can pick and choose whatever rules they decide to run, as long as the member bands adhere to those rules (which is what happened) there really isn't anything else to say. Given that Mr Heard has a long-established problem with our cousins North of the Border, I wouldn't worry overly about it.

    I read this on 4BR just after it was put up there, and two things sprang to mind - 1. was the Open the brass band equivalent of a "slack news day"? 2. did that "angry player" make those comments in the confines of one of Birmingham's watering holes during a decent post-contest session? I note no name or band is mentioned - or even if the player or their band is Scottish....

    EDIT: Cross posted - maybe it is being discussed (sorry I can't veiw threads as I'm not a member there) but the rest of my comments still stand.
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2008
  13. JR

    JR Member

    I have though

    In 1997 at the 2nd section final held at Birmingham Symphony Hall. The winners were disqualified and the 2nd placed band given the trophy and title.
    It led to an extremely messy and embarrassing court case.

    Wasnt the band band in question Rhos Silver? (Ian Brownbill conducted with Dave King helping out on the front row) - they may well have been re-instated on appeal (cannot recall the final outcome) however I do remember this making the national press.

    If I remember rightly (please correct if I'm wrong) the issue concerned a trombone player and the Welsh registry - the recent British Open problem does have some remarkable similarities .

    John R
  14. IanHeard

    IanHeard Member

    Below is a quote from the discussion in Scotland, it would appear you are wrong!

    "As a Scottish band, you cannot apply the rules of a different registration body just because a contest takes place outwith our borders. As I said above, all Scottish bands are expected to abide by the rules of the Scottish Registry. I'm not saying I agree with the current Scottish Registration rules but hey, those are the rules that are in place and until such time as they are amended they must be adhered too.

    Look at the situation in reverse. Lets say an English band competing at the Scottish Open has signed by transfer one or two players the week before the contest. Do they turn up at Perth and get told they cannot play. No. Because said players are properly registered according to the rules of their own registry."
  15. JTKBrass

    JTKBrass Member

    There shouldn't be difference between the two sets of rules, and definitely not differences that disadvantage Scottish bands playing outside of Scotland. Hopefully this will lead to a few common sense tweaks here and there to bring the rules in line.
  16. Frontman

    Frontman Member

    After reading this thread, I remember a comment that I made several years ago in a paper I wrote regarding 'The Future of our Movement', which was published on 4 bars rest in 2004, part of which concerned the posibility of future disputes between the three different registries, reading this thread I now believe that the time has come to merge all three registries and work under one set of contest rules, properly discussed and negotiated between all concern and then a National Brass Band Registry should be formed as a totally independant organization which has no affiliation to The Scottish Brass Band Association, The Welsh Brass Band Association or The British Federation of Brass Bands.

    The rules, as previously mentioned, would be written and distributed to all Contest organisers and all competeing Bands so that everyone sings from the same song sheet.

    That way everyone will be aware of how the rules relate all contests and therefore there would be no question of doubt regarding any situation which could arise. None of this 'the player has re-registered after his/her card was cancelled' etc. nonsense. Accountability is something that must be addressed.

    Surely it is obvious to all that the current situation is rediculous.

    The powers at be however will never change and we will have to continue to listen or be preach to by them whilst they demand that each is correct.

    (I wonder if I will get another phone call questioning my opinion.)
  17. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    Actually, I think THAT is wrong! :tongue:

    I am contest secretary of a band registered with the British Registry. When we enter our local association (SCABA) contests, we do so with National cards.
    BUT, under SCABA's own rules, all new players must be registered, and all transfers effective, 2 weeks before a contest. This is different (and harsher) than the rules of the registry who's cards we use, but the rules of the contest in question are the ones we have to follow. If I didn't ensure my registrations were all done 2 weeks earlier, then we'd either have to go without the players in question or be disqualified.

    Its harsh but fair. Wether or not I think its right is completely irrelevant - the only fact that matters is that we are aware of the rules before we enter the contests, and in submitting an entry we agree to abide by those rules or face the consequences.
    If we were to compete in Scotland, or at any other association's contest, exactly the same prinicipal would apply.
  18. andywooler

    andywooler Supporting Member

    Indeed - it was actually Bosnia in the orignal!
    And imho, nothing has changed since that time (must be 15 years or so ago?). My passport is still valid for 10 years whereas my Registry card is valid for one or two years depending on how much my band paid.
  19. brasscrest

    brasscrest Active Member

    The "reverse" example is a straw man. If the Scottish Open wished to apply the Scottish registry rules to all bands competing, the organizers could do so. I suspect that the reason that they don't has more to do with having more bands attend the contest than with anything that actually has anything to do with the rules. In other words, if the Scottish Open used the more restrictive rules, some of the non-Scottish bands would probably choose not to compete in the Scottish Open, or would not be able to do so because their registry has a less-restrictive policy.
  20. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    This to me is a total non issue, it matters not what your registry rules are when entering a contest, what matters are the rules of that particular contest. The contest rules in this case were not broken simple as that. Storm in a tea cup or more likely - sour grapes.

    As for the comment that Scottish players should abide by the rules of the Scottish registry when entering all contests, within or without Scotland... phah, sorry but that's tosh. Do you drive on the left hand side of the road when you are in la France...? no you don't... you abide by la France's rules...! Same applies to contests, one abides by the rules of the contest.