Registration, do we need it?

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by simonbassbone, Feb 21, 2012.

  1. stevetrom

    stevetrom Well-Known Member

    Can someone explain the relationship between the BFBB and the registry, I don't really understand where the problem is
  2. Ianroberts

    Ianroberts Well-Known Member

    can someone explain why this hodges bloke was removed ?
  3. ophicliede

    ophicliede Member

    I think it is important that we do maintain a registry as you have an element of bands in our community that have the attitude 'win at any cost'. The borrowing of guest players has I know upset some bands at significant contests ie., Butlins. Key players borrowed from other bands to strengthen the band and some bands do this on a regular basis where the rules allow surely this is why we need the registry otherwise those less scrupulous bands would prosper.
  4. Pauli Walnuts

    Pauli Walnuts Moderator Staff Member

    Less scrupulous bands? These are bands struggling to survive and need guest players to keep them going - they do it all year long on bandstands and concert stages around the country!

    Archaic practices are killing the movement - the over reliance on contesting and all it's associated rules has killed enough bands over the years - will we never learn?
    It has also stifled the development of original works because of the contesting requirement for a 10-12 minute work.
  5. kennywenny

    kennywenny Member

  6. ophicliede

    ophicliede Member

    I don't think that some of the Championship section bands are struggling to survive! Some of them use the gamesmanship of borrowing players at contests to their own ends. Helping a band on concerts does not require registrations???? In the competitive field registration is needed.
  7. Pauli Walnuts

    Pauli Walnuts Moderator Staff Member

    I disagree fundamentally on that - it is not needed at all if we stop placing so much store by rankings and contests and the like. Do people taking part in local competitive music festivals have to register? Do the top Orchestras compete to prove who is the best? If the band who wins the Nationals is not the same band as the one billed to appear in my local theatre is that not also cheating the concert going public?
    Here's a suggestion: remove all prize money from all contests - then there will be no need to worry about registrations, it will reduce the costs of running the event to.

    My own band chose not to enter the regionals for a while as the last time we had a good result, it wasn't really our own band - we had players signed who we haven't seen since. (Many bands will tell the same story). So who would we be kidding if we went up with a bunch of deps and won?

    And one last thing, what's the % of championship section bands vs the rest of the band movement? I think you'll find they are a minority so having a national registration simply to curb the antics of the minority makes no sense to me at all.
  8. KernowSop

    KernowSop Member

    Personally, I do think registration is necessary, however I do think the current rules need to be more flexible. Why can we not register with one band (our main band), but we are able to help out / contest for band in a higher section. Also, lower section bands (3rd & 4th) should be able to play with 5 unregistered players, regardless of which section the borrowed players are registered in. If they are required by a higher section band, there is usually an emphasis on that player to attend rehersals to make sure their playing is up to standard. It also offers the opportunity for that player to improve, by having to work harder than they would normally do.

    I cannot see Dyke suddenly asking me to dep on sop and I don't think I could be classified as a ringer in any way, but the 1st & 2nd Sections also struggle with player shortages. We have a lot of bands around us in varying sections, if we are not playing for lower section bands (in effect raising the standard - questionable I know), but we are helping the band compete at their level, how can this be detrimental to banding.

    With all the restrictions in place and the difficulties getting younger people in to brass banding, there are goingto be bands that fold / merge in the not too distant future. It's important for the future of banding that a compromise is found, that is seen as 'fair'. Although there will always be the people shouting about unfairness.. contest days wouldn't be the same if we didn't hear the 'we were robbed' speech.
  9. All4Brass

    All4Brass Member

    The BFBB have now issued a response. View at
  10. Ianroberts

    Ianroberts Well-Known Member

    thanks for that !
  11. All4Brass

    All4Brass Member

    The BBBR have spoken to A4B tonight regarding BFBB's accusations that they have not been given notice of industrial action. They also told us that the BFBB do not have any legal rights to touch the registry details due to data protection and so must insist, that no transfer/registration documents are sent for the time being. Full response
  12. Andy_Euph

    Andy_Euph Active Member

    My own views on registration have been put up on here many times before (and shot down by the "everyone will end up cheating" brigade), but, if we must have some form of registration, I still believe it would be beneficial for lots of bands if they were allowed borrowed players at the National contest.

    As for the current dispute, looks like two sides that will never agree, which means its only going to get uglier.
  13. Sonorous

    Sonorous New Member

    Registration is a draconian, antiquated and desperately damaging stranglehold on brass bands.

    The sooner it is removed the better.

    Talk about 'cheating' is ridiculous. There isn't such a thing as cheating in music. If a band has sufficient contacts to bring in top class players whenever they want, then that's the way it is. It is most likely that this band will also do exactly the same for it's concerts.

    If a band decides to exist on half a band, and keep paying 'pros' to take the rest of the seats at contests, then they're only cheating themselves in the long term.

    Registration doesn't stop ANY of this anyway, it just puts unnecessary restrictions on all bands.

    Think about it this way.. Why is it unfair for Roger Webster to come and play for your band at a contest while he's playing with Grimethorpe... but it's not when he isn't playing for anyone? He's the same player, he's the same talent. his inclusion has exactly the same affect on the band and result (or lack of effect), he'll most probably charge exactly the same fee! Registration simply panders to semantics.
  14. Pauli Walnuts

    Pauli Walnuts Moderator Staff Member

    like, like, like, like, like!!!

    I am beginning to feel that I am not alone on this anymore.
  15. Will the Sec

    Will the Sec Active Member

    If sufficient people feel this strongly about it, then the thing to do is make representation to the correct authorities. If they do not do anything, then get yourself or selves elected to said authorities and instigate the change.

    For all the good things tMP can achieve, (last minute deps etc) I do not believe any major change has occurred in the Brass Band World because utterances here on.
  16. Sonorous

    Sonorous New Member

    Actually you're not entirely right there. Social forums can be extremely powerful things and have already brought world shaking changes simply by allowing mass opinions to gain momentum.

    Put it this way, this may be an opinion that everyone holds, but thinks they're on their own. If enough people start to see that many others hold the same opinion, then this can really trigger a surprisingly quick 'revolution'. Ok, this probably won't happen in our intrinsicly backward looking organisation, but little shifts in opinion can have a much bigger effect long term than someone trying to change the rules from within (We've seen that tried and failed many times - our old fashioned organisation is very quick to lampoon and shoot down people who try bring the changes)

    The reason I would never put my self forward to run some central band organisation, is that i don't agree with them. Music should be free, not shackled togethor in some immovable and antiquated juggernaut.
  17. Pauli Walnuts

    Pauli Walnuts Moderator Staff Member

    Will, I have actually been there and attempted to make change - as an Exec member of the Scaba team, I made proposals to the now defunct COSEBBA - They were dismissed out of hand by the then Chair, Norman Jones, and I wasn't even allowed to speak on the topic at the meeting! (my paper had been circulated).

    Next issue: I have served on a regional committee too - they also have absolutely no power to change rules and are there simply to run 1 contest on behalf of the owners. So the only way to change this is to become the owner. And none of the current owners appear to have any interest in removing the registration requirement.

    That leaves being active in forums such as this.

    Finally - go find an Egyptian and ask them if Social Media helped or hindered the "Arab Spring"!
  18. Will the Sec

    Will the Sec Active Member

    Pauli, you are then amongst the minority whose has actually tried, but you aren't the only person on here talking about it, and most, if not all of them haven't.

    Next, if all Regional Committees say "enough", then they, as the organizations representing both It That Must Not Be Named and their constituent bands, could force It That Must Not Be Named to listen, or there is the danger (from It That Must Not Be Named's point of view) of a profit reducing breakaway. OK, so we could end up with our national competition being called something ridiculous, but that might be seen as an acceptable if It That Must Not Be Named is immovable.

    Lastly, to both Pauli and Sonorous, my reference was to tMP specifically, not Social Media in general. I never said that Social Media isn't effective - and Pauli's citation about the Arab Spring is spot on - only that in my experience, tMP hasn't been. Do I think it could have been? Yes. Should have been? Not so sure.
  19. Sonorous

    Sonorous New Member

    I have nothing to disagree with you here. However my main point of disagreement with your original post is that the implication was "don't say anything on here, go and see your authorities". When actually the reality is that if enough people started opening up about opinions such as this on websites exactly like tMP then things would change much more rapidly than our immovable leaders currently are able or have the appetite to.

    Basically the more people stir each other up the more power there will be to start making changes. I don't really believe changes should happen by god-like decree anyway, they should always be incremental, experimental, evolutionary (a contest here, a band there etc).

    I don't actually blame our beloved 'leaders' really. They try to please everyone and end up pleasing no one. Music is music, and it shouldn't be run like the NHS.

    The biggest problem with tMP as a forum for true opinions, is that most intelligent thinking people on here tend to not want to flaunt contraversial opinions as the community is so close, and (as much as we'd like to try to believe otherwise) opinions of the individual often reflect on opinions of the band. Hence why, when I post on topics such as this, I deliberately use a pseudonym.

    But at the end of the day my opinion remains the same. I'd be delighted to see registration go the way of the Dodo. And I know many many people who have exactly the same opinion, but stick to the line for fear of rocking the boat.
  20. Will the Sec

    Will the Sec Active Member

    Sonorous, you have assumed an implication to be present on my earlier post. I did not, and have never said, 'don't post opinions on tMP'. (I have on occasion said "Back up your opinions/pronouncements with some substance", but that is a whole other can of worms.) My point on this thread, and in many others over the years, is that

    • for all the good points raised;
    • for all the calls for change;
    • for all the bleats about how rubbish it is to have old/new/experimental music for test pieces; and,
    • for all the complaints about how much it costs to get into Butlins if you're only going for the day,

    tMP might as well be a chocolate teapot if this is the ONLY place the topic is discussed.

    I have yet to say what my view on the topic is, but I do not feel strongly enough about it to be at the forefront of pushing for a change.

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