Regionals 2009: Championship Section Test Piece: Salute to Youth, Gilbert Vinter

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by Di, Sep 30, 2008.

  1. JR

    JR Member

    The errata falls in to the Sybil Fawlty category i.e. it states the bleedin' obvious (at length..)

    Plus misses some of the glaring errors on the score e.g. timp one tone out last few bars 2nd movt etc

    John R
  2. iancwilx

    iancwilx Well-Known Member

    I've attached two pages of the 1962 Yorks Area "Salute to Youth" contest programme.
    The prize money and the cost of band parts is interesting.

    - Wilkie

    Attached Files:

  3. Anno Draconis

    Anno Draconis Well-Known Member

    Very interesting!!

    If both had gone up in line with average earnings, the cost of a score and set of parts (£1 19 0) would be £68.06, not far off what a testpiece costs now. The prize money (£50), on the other hand, would have gone up to £1745.10 :eek:

    [Calcualtions from]
  4. Red Elvis

    Red Elvis Active Member

    Slight tangent here , but on Saturday night I was arguing a minor point with a fellow band geek about StY . Typing the name of the piece into a search engine in order to prove I was indeed correct I was surprised that the pop-up advert on the page enjoined me to seek out young ladies of questionable morals for the purposes of brief relationships on the physical level ( hope thats clean enough mods ! ) !!:) Not sure what that says about us band types !!
  5. jockinafrock

    jockinafrock Active Member

    David Read stood on stage and more or less told those in the audience who hadn't fallen asleep or committed suicide that most of the bands that played that section couldn't read music/observe markings/play correct rhythms...

    Not many positives I'm afraid, and certainly no real acknowledgement of the efforts of players and MDs given the hoo ha over errata, or personal triumphs like mastering tricky tripling and doing a damn fine job of solos, etc!
    Thanks David, hardly encouraging words... :hammer
  6. Simon_Horn

    Simon_Horn Member

    Surely just honesty Jockinafrock? I'm sure someone with the credentials of David Read wouldn't be having a rant for the sake of it?? The fact is that some pieces of music lend themselves to a bit of MD interpretation and some don't ....and some adjudicators like a personal touch at time and some don't. Surely this adjudicator has been around long enough for MDs to know what he is looking for and isn't this just essential research for any MD these days in the system we currently have and especially in the area contest!

    And as for encouragement, this was the NW championship section full of accomplished players - not struggling lower section town bands that need some words of encouragement. I wasn't there on Sunday but if David Read feels the need to tell championship bands that they didn't get the basics right then I think he's right to do so!
  7. jockinafrock

    jockinafrock Active Member

    As you said, you weren't there... And I'm sorry, everyone needs a bit of encouragement irrespective of whether you're bottom of the 4th or top of the championship. ;)
    Don't you think Leyland need a bit of encouragement at this present moment in time...? :(
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2009
  8. Di B

    Di B Member

    I don't - well not from the adjudicator.

    You play at a top level because you are good. If you werent good you would be replaced. You should also be musically experienced enough to know if your performance was good for your band. That should be your praise. Adjudicators shouldn't need to massage egos as well. The bands were told where they went wrong. Thats all they needed to know.

    We put the work in because we want to. We contest because we want to. We know that rogue results happen. We are strong enough to pick ourselves up and carry on. We dont need our backsides wiping by adjudicators!

    That said I believe that positive criticism should be used in 4th and 3rd section because of the amount of inexperience and children there.

    Condolences to leyland but I am sure their players will just lick their wounds and come back stronger like the top section band they are.
    Congrats to Fodens faireys pemberton and wire for the excellent results.
  9. scotchgirl

    scotchgirl Active Member

    The first point about players being replaced if they weren't good enough...that isn't true in every band at the top section. Some bands enjoy and build on having a core of players, regardless of their technical or musical ability. When you are a group of friends as well as banders, it isn't acceptable, in some bands, to get rid of people and replace them with better players. Loyalty.....its an issue in Championship banding...glory chasing at the expense of friends is all too common I feel.

    I do agree about ego massaging from adjudicators though...I don't do contests for adjudicators to come on and tell me how good I was, when I should already know from experience how well or not I've played....ultimately it all comes down to the result. There are always rogue results in contests...every band has had a day when they've played a blinder and came nowhere...equally every band has come off the stage knowing they were **** and then getting a good result. Its all swings and roundabouts.

    Adjudicators are there to tell it how it is...they're there to JUDGE the bands on their performances, and if they don't think any band tackled a piece particularly well, then they are entitled to say the top level bands should expect nothing more.
  10. bassbone

    bassbone Member

    Nail. Head. Great post
  11. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Here's a weird erratum... We're playing off the old edition, for reference.

    Bass trombone part, 2nd movement, bar 43 - the bass trombone is in the middle of several bars of unison with the basses, but this one bar is a tone higher than the tubas. An obvious mistake, no? A few seconds' peering at the harmony in the score reveals that the tubas have the right notes, and so the bass trombone should go done a tone from what is written for that one bar.

    So far so simple... However! Now the last note of the bar is a low C, not a D. The old G trombone has a bottom note of Db, so wouldn't have been able to play this (the whole passage sits just above the lower limit of the G trombone range, as printed).

    So what's going on here? Did people always play that bar a tone out? Did players spot the mistake, and jump up an octave on the last note? Did they maybe fake the low C by lipping down?

    And it also raises another interesting question - if we accept that C, do we accept the validity of moving the bass trombone down an octave in a couple of other places where the part jumps up from bass octave to tenor octave mid-figure in order to avoid a low C? [e.g. the last two notes of the opening figure]
  12. Red Elvis

    Red Elvis Active Member

    Good points MoominDave .
    Not being a bass trom player ( I have been known to abuse a tenor in my time ) when did the old G trom fade from use and the plugged version come into use ? would top-level bands have been using plugged basses by the sixties ?
  13. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    In bands - not until the late 60s / early 70s, as I understand it. In 1962, I don't think anyone in bands was using a Bb/F bass instrument. Also, Gilbert Vinter would have been scoring in a 'standard practice' kind of way - he wouldn't have deliberately written notes that a lot of players wouldn't have, would he? But then I wasn't even thought of for another 17 years after that, so I'm just passing on second-hand info...
  14. PeterBale

    PeterBale Moderator Staff Member

    As brass bands were still using high pitch instruments at that stage, I would agree that it's unlikely that any Bb/Fs were in use
  15. Brian Bowen

    Brian Bowen Active Member

    The ISB began using a Bb/F bass trombone in the early 1960s. Can't be sure of the date, but it was certainly before 1964 and was played (by Brian Cooper) on the ISB's LP that included the first recording of "The Kingdom Triumphant".
  16. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Very interesting though the question of when people started using bass trombones other than straight Gs is [fascinating observation, Brian, btw - did the ISB lead the way, or had they seen it done by other bands?], it doesn't bear on what Vinter would have been scoring for, as many (I suspect a large majority) of players were still using straight Gs in 1962. By way of comparison, euphoniums have had 4th valves since the late 19th century, but people have only recently started writing non-optional notes below low F# for them. Writing notes that you know are not playable by many of the intended players isn't sensible...

    My personal suspicion is that Vinter himself made this mistake in transposition while doing his scoring - it made the part appear as if it was in range when it wasn't, and this was then not spotted by the proofreaders.
  17. Ali.Syme

    Ali.Syme Member

    Epic piece especially the last movement. Also there are a lot of ways to interpret the parts themselves. For example, the last movement can be played quite broadly, with more of a punch or with a bit of a bounce. No emphasis on one over the other ruins the piece it just makes it move differently.

    The bass trombone does more with the trombones in terms of tune and motif than it does securing the bass lines. A good mix and valuable learning piece for any bone player :)
  18. Playing this piece for the first time. As discussed in great length on this thread, it's ridiculous that you pay so much for music when it has as many errors as this one.