Regionals 2008: First Section Test Piece: James Cook – Circumnavigator

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by Di, Sep 30, 2007.

  1. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member


    I'm the one making a reasoned, logical and musical case; you're the one resorting to "I've-played-with-more-top-bands-than-you-have" -type arguments ...
  2. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    Exactly. There is a strong case for arguing that Vinter should ideally have notated this section in 12/8. which would have removed any doubt as to how the sextuplets should have been shaped. Only the trombone tuplets go against this.
  3. zak

    zak Member

    :biggrin: Yawn ... very predictable response!! :biggrin:

    And a reasoned/logical case is accusing me of not listening to what goes on around me?... Get real for gods sake!!!!!

    And yes, for the record, I'm proud to have played and still am at a high brass banding level, perhaps you should try it at some point!!! ;)

    End of :clap:
  4. helen_euph

    helen_euph Member

    Agreed :clap: Our basses have been asked to try to stick to the 6 feel and not slip into didleli didleli didleli (triplets!) at that point... and us (euphs) too in bars 29 and 33. Despite the patterns of notes, like you said, there's no indication it should change from straight sixes.
    On that note, I'm off... got to play JC every night til next Sunday's area and this was a day off!!!! :wink:
  5. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    It's bars running from 28 onwards that intrigue me ... thematic material still dominating in triplet notation but the sixes are played in threes. When the sextuplets are played straight, the figures then feel (and sound) like a spiralling effect in my opinion. I wonder if Gilbert Vinter approved the triplet subdivision when James Cook was proof-read? (I've not experienced bands playing it otherwise).
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2008
  6. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    No, the reasoned/logical case was what was presented in the earlier post, which apparently you didn't properly understand.

    I'm sorry if your insecurity forces you to reply in such a defensive manner, however I maintain my right to hold my own opinion, without recourse to immature chest-beating.
  7. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    Sorry, don't follow. In my score, these are still even sextuplets, and are therefore still subject to the 12/8 feel, which is what I feel the music should have been notated in anyway. Are you suggesting that Vinter intended that these sextuplets should have had the second beam broken after every three?
  8. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    Gilbert Vinter had a strong working relationship with G.U.S. (Footwear) Band and I would expect that they would have had supplied some feedback if the manuscripts hit their stands and he was still fit enough to go and listen. I believe their recording of James Cook may have been the first and the bass sixes are played in threes. You will have to make you own mind up how the baris/euphs play their earlier groups.
  9. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    According to the sleeve notes of "Epic Brass" (the CD version - notes by Tim Mutum - presumably not the original LP sleeve notes (although I don't know for certain)) Vinter never heard JC performed. Granted, this might not mean that he didn't hear GUS rehearse the work, although the plethora of alleged "errata", coupled with the inability of the publishers to effectively resolve them might suggest that he didn't. I haven't heard the GUS recording of the work - you don't mention who was conducting? It may well be that the conductor had some sort of direct relationship with Vinter, and that the score used for the recording session might provide some valuable insights ...
  10. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    - Yes, the recording does contain 'obvious' errors as played (but not the ones associated with it currently). The recording was done in 1971 and conductor was Stanley Boddington. It must be remembered that Vinter did conduct G.U.S. from time to time so the relationship is fact. Whether there was some connection with James Cook I cannot say for certain as it was written rather late on in his life.

    Errors in print aren't necessarily the composer's fault!
  11. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    Absolutely not, although it is an understandable problem with works that are published posthumously.

    In the normal course of events, an editor would review a work during preparation for publification. Copyists and engravers would liase with the editor, pointing out any obvious discrepancies, and the editor would either make an editorial decision, or, in the event of a "grey" issue, would refer back to the composer for clarification. Clearly, if the composer is no longer in a position to comment (!) the Editor has to "go it alone", and will, inevitably sometimes make mistakes. Often, he might attempt to resolve the discrepancy by referring to the composers "autograph" or handwritten "original" score, but these reference scores were by no means guaranteed to be error free either.

    This is why I have reservations concerning the revised score recently issued by Studio Music. What is their "reference source"? It would be helpful if they were to explain exactly where the revisions originated.
  12. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    Apologies, above post crossed over with your PM
  13. Gorgie boy

    Gorgie boy Member

    But if he had written it in 12/8 then it would have been slightly easier. It's a test piece, meant to test the players. And remember, it's meant to be a test for the conductor as well!
  14. Thirteen Ball

    Thirteen Ball Active Member

    So you're suggesting it was written that way to be deliberately obstructive?

    I suppose it's possible but I personally think it unlikely.

    I remember having a similar debate in another thread and was put right in no uncertain terms that composers in general treat the music as primary, and the idea of the "test" as secondary.

    And the chap who put me right was Philip Sparke, who knows a lot more about these things than I do!!

    I'd agree if the sixes are to be grouped in threes, then 12:8 time would make more sense. Alternately, If they were to be grouped in twos, 6:4 time would make more sense.

    But perhaps vinter felt subdividing the beat in such a definite manner would spoil the flow of the music. Either way would tent to make the shape a bit more 'clicky.' At least with 4:4 the shape of each phrase retains the descriptive swell that's so integral to the style.
  15. Will the Sec

    Will the Sec Active Member

    I wonder if this debate will go on after the areas...

    For me, it's a case of follow the conductor' lead, and watch his or her beat. If you know your part well enough, you'll play in the place he or she wants you to.
  16. BassBlaster

    BassBlaster Member

    Thank you Will, it`s a piece of music, watch the person with the stick, ahhh I see you are a BBb Bass player, Man with vision.
    I see why people worry, but now it`s time to play.......Music.
  17. stevetrom

    stevetrom Well-Known Member

    All this discussion is fine, my only problem will be if the adjudicators stand up on saturday afternnon and say "the groups of 6 should be treated as ......, and very few bands did that today"

    If the adjudicators have a view that differs from your (or my) MD it could be a dissapointing day.
  18. BassBlaster

    BassBlaster Member

    "Que Sera Sera (Whatever Will Be, Will Be)"
    It will only be a dissapointing day if the band does not perform as well as they could, even if you play your best, you can be beaten by the draw, adjudicators or interpretation. Just everyone do really well and enjoy. like the cider i`m drinking!!!
  19. Thirteen Ball

    Thirteen Ball Active Member

    Interestingly, our remarks don't mention the 6s at all. Whether that means we played them right or wrong in the adjudicators minds, I'm not sure!

    At least the bands in areas with only one adjudicator will have a unified theory of what the piece should sound like.

    Jim Scott: "Cornet handles the solo very well and nicely."
    Bob Childs: "Cornet sounds extremely nervous in solo line."

    Cheers gents.....
  20. Will the Sec

    Will the Sec Active Member

    Maybe - but a sometime conductor who has been known to physically move a player's seat so he could see my beat and not just the solo horn's elbows...