Discussion in 'Classifieds' started by falcons1988, May 7, 2008.

  1. falcons1988

    falcons1988 New Member

    Hi All
    As with many bands and ensemble, recording can be a pain.
    I am based/live in Newport (S.Wales) and I am registered with the local band. I am able to do recordings for Brass/Wind Bands in the S.Wales area. Unfortunately, I can't come out to people (at the moment). The recording will be done in the YMCA Newport (where Newport Borough Rehearse), the YMCA has some good recording equipment, and along with my own personal equipment, a high quality recording can be made (That includes the playing :p :p :p ).
    If your band is based in S.Wales and would like to do a recording, please do not hesitate to contact me, via PM or e-mail. A date can be organised, with the me, YMCA and yourselves.
  2. falcons1988

    falcons1988 New Member

    Also you can contact me via phone/text 07923 593007

    Percussion and stands are at the bandroom in the YMCA, though permission from Newport Borough Brass Band MUST be obatined as it their equipment. There shouldn't be a problem.
    Also contact jpbray (his membername on this site)- secretary of the Band
  3. Flugel Boy

    Flugel Boy New Member

    What an intriguing post.

    I dont have much experience of YMCA, but if the hall can take a wind band how big is it?

    Secondly, as it is YMCA premises would they be any passing traffic (people) during sessions?

    Thirdly, by high quality are we talking potentially releasable? :D
  4. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    Yes it's fun though ;)
  5. falcons1988

    falcons1988 New Member

    #1 Size - Yes it is big enough for a windband, we have had an orchestra in there in the past.

    #2 Passing Traffic - As long as there is a BIG Army Style sign and notices for quietness "Please be SILENT recording in progress", etc... The YMCA hold Music examinations as well so there shouldn't be any problems.

    #3 Releasable - Oh YES, there is money to be made!!!:p :guiness :biggrin: :woo
  6. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    It's about 350-400m from what looks like an active train line though ;)
  7. Flugel Boy

    Flugel Boy New Member

    Thanks for the information. Sounds like quite a facility. You've mentioned a mix of equipment. Without being too technical what does that entail? Are we talking a couple of microphones taking in everything or mics everywhere or what? Looking at some of the websites it's a bit of a minefield when you (me) don't know and what you get is a list as long as your arm of "Newman" this or "AKG" that. I suppose it's a selling point for some. Also, why would a recording be a pain? Or have I misunderstood that? Good luck with the venture. :tup
  8. falcons1988

    falcons1988 New Member

    The YMCA have a KORG D32XD 16 Channel Digital Mixing desk, worth about £3k-£5k. Extremely Excellent piece of kit, they also have two very good dynamic mics and two 'ok' condensers (instrumental mics) a load of leads and mic stands. Regards microphones are concerned, I use my own personal condenser microphones, they are much better than the ones from the YMCA. The YMCA also have a very good Drumkit Microphone set, of which can be used. Though in a full ensemble, it doesnt need to be fully miced up.

    Though when recording I will be using both as I can use the YMCA ones as a pair of overheads, while mine are used for main recording. I have a sound module. From which I can do a 2 mic demo/sound test, that I can use to plug into my laptop. Though the Mixing desk has option as well. So no drama's there.

    Basically I will use no more than 10/11 mics, though things can change. Depending on the group. This is a ROUGH guide (stc)

    You are right in a sense of equipment and recording is a minefield, getting the right equipment and more importantly, knowing how to work it. It can come down to personal experience, and talking to people as well. AKG and Newman are FANTASTIC makes and they have the price tag to go with it.

    Recording can be a pain, because of a few reasons.
    #1 Getting the people in to do it
    #2 Cost
    #3 Equipment
    #4 Logistics.
    #5 Suitable Venue

    It is getting a tick in all of those boxes is key if you can do that then there is no probs. I know that a recording with Newport Band is on the cards
    #1 People to do it - Yes
    #2 Cost - depends
    #3 Equipment - I have it and the YMCA has it
    #4 Logistics, the band rehearse at the YMCA.
    #5 The YMCA Bandroom is large and soundproofed - ideal for recording, or the bakewell room (Hall), it is big and is also ideal for recording.

    If your band wants to do a CD and make some money, then lets go for it.

    Dynamic Microphones - you plug them in and they work - Used for guitars, vocals, and percussion

    Condenser Microphones - require what is known as 'phantom power' where they are power using by pressing a switch on the Mixer. Mainly used for 'traditional' Instruments (strings, woodwind, brass), vocals and can be used for percussion.

    At the end of the day, it comes down to the person recording and the ensemble.

    If I have been a bit too complex in my answers, regards recording gobbledeguke, let me know. I will try and make things clearer.
  9. 0VU

    0VU New Member

    Having read your contributions on the subject so far, that'd be the thing that'd worry me the most!

    Please do because what you've written so far isn't so much complex as confused and over simplistic to the point of being useless. :confused:
    Last edited: May 9, 2008
  10. falcons1988

    falcons1988 New Member

    That is over the choice of mics, where as long as a good sound is produced, then there should be no problems.

    Regards your second point, whatever line of work you are in or whatever you do, especially if you enjoy it, you will get carried away talking about etc... While the person you are talking to is like "wtf is that idiot on about".
    I have probably gone into too much detail. Point out what you dont understand I will try and explain. SIMPLY!!
  11. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    You may be able to infer quite a bit from his / her username of 0VU and you may have missed the point.

    Have fun with the Newport recording....but remember that your plan with 10 to 11 mics will fall over on the Korg recorder due to it's channel count if you're planning to record at 44.1/24.
  12. falcons1988

    falcons1988 New Member

    Like I said, it is only a rough guide, though I will probably stick to 8.
    It is trial and error more than anything, and getting the right balance. Each ensemble is different. Then adjusting the mic positions/placement accordingly.
  13. 0VU

    0VU New Member

    OK, I see the logic in that - if it sounds good it is good - but what do you do if it doesn't sound good? How do you approach it then, bearing in mind that the clock is very much running on everyone's recording time and budget?

    Being guilty myself of over enthusing and giving too much detail in answers, I see your point there too, and as the reader of your responses, that thought had definitely crossed my mind.

    I think you slightly missed the point of my last post.

    However, since you feel able to explain things, could you expand a bit on the differences between dynamic and condensor mics, perhaps explaining how the differences affect the suitability of each in different situations and how you arrived at your recommended uses for each. Oh, and an explanation of how phantom power works would be good too; I'm sure there's more to it than just pressing a button on the mixer. Don't worry about how complex the description gets, I can always ask if I get lost.

    Incidentally, as Keith mentions above, how do you get around the limited number of inputs available on the D32XD? Does the one you use have the input expansion board or is it the basic 8 input version?

    On your diagram, you show a pair of 'overheads'. Can I ask what you use for these and whether you'd position them where they are on the diagram or if that's just a very rough indication of a pair that go 'somewhere'.

    Also, out of curiosity, having had a quick look at the Newport YMCA website, there's no information on there about ceiling heights or surface finishes/treatments, and none of the rooms look 'big' in recording/performance terms; could you fill in some of the blanks?

    Again, just out of curiosity, do you do/have you done a lot of acoustic music recording and do you have any samples which you could post somewhere for download or to which you could link? (Or even that I could buy?)

    I'm sure I'll think of other questions as things go along but if you could start with those it'd be very helpful.
  14. falcons1988

    falcons1988 New Member

    Regards your first point, thats what I mean by 'trial and error' and changing mics around to get the best possible sound.

    Condenser and Dynamic Mics.

    Condensers - Are typically used in recording studios and mainly used for instruments as they produce a high quality audio signal. They require phantom power. Basically it is to power the microphone. Condensers are also known as capacitor mics where the diaphagm is the top plate of a capacitor. Though I think (dont quote me on this) the phantom power is probably used to charge the capacitor. Then I start entering the unknown realms of difficult calculations/formula's and physics/electronics.

    The Phantom power works by sending a 48V signal down the wire to power the condenser microphone, the condenser can only be used in an XLR input on a mixing desk as the phantom power is carried through pin 1.
    Dynamics on the other hand, that do not require phantom power can be used with Line (6.35mm Jack) in or XLR.

    Dynamics - typically used for vocals, percussion and guitars.

    There are that many differences and explantations to why different mics are used, I would be here all week. Like I said it comes down to the idiot doing the recording on deciding what is best to use.

    The desk is the 16 channel but like I mentioned above, I can only use 8 condensers. Though XLR ports are generally better. In sound quality

    The pair of overheads is just a very rough indication. I would use a pair of condensers facing L and R to pick up a general sound from the Band.

    Newport YMCA bandroom is rather big, the ceiling is accoustically designed as it was specifically built for Newport Band out of £90k lottery grant 15years ago. (before the money dried up for the 2012 olympics). The ceiling is about 16ft at is highest point and about 10 at its lowest.

    I have done quite a bit of recording
    Here is a recording of my Arrangement of the Original Thomas the Tank Engine theme, for big band.;9791119;/fileinfo.html
    It is rather interesting.

    There are one or two things myself and KMJ may disagree on, but it comes down to personal experience and how we have been taught.
  15. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    I'm not quite sure what I / we've got to do with this, but yes it does and it's likely there'll be rather more than one or two.
  16. TubaPete

    TubaPete Member

    Falcons, have you worked out yet what 0VU's username implies about his knowledge and experience of recording?

    I wish you luck with your venture - I hope you have both the quality of critical listening and the ability to develop your technical understanding you need to make a success of it. Your posts show a great enthusiasm which hopefully you can harness and build on.

  17. 0VU

    0VU New Member

    Well, often, changing mics is a reasonable step to take in changing/fixing a problem balance but it's far from the only one. Also, whilst trial and error is one way to find a fix to a problem and, when learning to record, it's perhaps as valid a methodology as any other, when you're at the stage of doing this commercially, i.e. you're offering/advertising a service, especially one that involves taking people's money in return for providing that service, you really should be able to make decisions based upon experience rather than trial and error. Guesswork will probably get you there eventually but when time is money, isn;t there a better way? Would you recognise when a problem isn't going to be fixed by changing/moving mics? Let's say that it doesn't fix the problem, what other steps would you take?

    Er...ok. Why is it that condensor mics are used in studios rather than anywhere else and why would they produce a higher quality output signal than, say, a dynamic mic? Assuming that they do. Why are they mainly used for instruments? Assuming that they are.

    About phantom power.....It's not really clear to me from your description how it works. Is it only 48V and do only condensor mics use it? Do all condensor mics always need phantom power? Do they all have their diaphragms as the top plate of a capacitor? Also, how does this capacitor work to change sound into whatever is output by the mic? What does the phantom power have to do with pin 1 of an XLR and does it only come from a mixing desk? If it only works on an XLR, how does it work if you have to use e.g. some kind of intermediate multicore cable with connectors other than XLRs?

    Just out of interest, what "difficult calculations/formula's and physics/electronics" are involved and are they absolutely necessary clearly to describe the basic workings? I don't really want to know the operation of the circuit on an atomic level, just the basic principles (but if you do want to do the atomic level description that's ok). Don't worry about how complex the maths it, I used to be quite good at it, and despite failing O-level physics I've picked up a bit in the years since so I'll hopefully be able to keep up.

    Another bit of confusion here: why does a dynamic mic not needing phantom power mean that it works into a line input?

    Are line inputs always on 1/4" (6.35mm) jacks?

    (Don't worry, I won't be quoting you - unless it's in another post here ;) )

    Again, those seem to me like a pretty limited range of uses for dynamic miics and I'm still not sure from your (lack of) descriptions about the differences, why/how the physical properties of each type of mic affects the appropriateness of each type in different situation. Are there any simple/general features which distinguish or at least typify dynamic mics as opposed to condensors that may also explain why some are more suitable for some things than others? (Apart from the phantom power thing you've already mentioned.)

    Sorry (again) I still don't follow this. When I asked whether the desk has the expension board fitted I was asking because the D32XD in its standard version has 8 XLR mic level inputs but as an option it can have another 8 of the same inputs. I was wondering whether the one you use has this option fitted.

    I've not really come across the idea that XLR inputs sound better than others; how did you find this and why, in your experience, do you think it's the case?

    Ok. When you say "facing L and R" do you mean that one faces completely left and the other completely right? How do you set them up? (Do you use one of the 'normal' named 2-mic stereo techniques or is it some kind of proprietary rig that's unique to you?) And just to be clear, I actually meant what kind of condensor mics are they (Make/model) and where do you put therm? Are they as close to the band as shown on the diagram?

    I've had a look at the YMCA website and it's not clear about dimensions (suggestss different things in different places) but none of the rooms shown on the site are what I'd call 'big' in musical/acoustic terms. Quite small would be closer to the words I'd use ;) Still, that's not necessarily too much of a problem if the room is well designed and properly built. This ceiling sounds interesting; can you go into a bit more detail about the acoustic design? Do you know whether they used a specialist acoustician? Is it only the ceiling that's acoustically designed or is the rest of the room treated (if so, could you elaborate)? Does the room have a certified/documented acoustic any particular recognised standard?Aside from the acoustic treatment, the website mentions soundproofing (so did you); do you know what form this takes and how effective it is (in numbers)?

    So....dozens.....hundreds....thousands.....? Are these recordings of things like brass bands/orchestras/windbands/big bands/acoustic rock bands/ or more 'in the box' type stuff and were they professional or hobby recordings?

    Yes. I've only listened to a little bit, and then only very quietly on headphones, but yes...interesting.

    Where does KMJ come into this? Do you know Keith or work with him?

    One of the things I've been trying to work out, is how much and what type of personal experience do you have? And for that matter, you say 'taught', what, where and with whom did/do you study?

    Again, sorry it's a long list of Qs but it's a lot to cover and I'm still curious and rather unclear where you're coming from.
  18. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

  19. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    OK, we need to clarify a few things here I guess.

    @Falcon: I wish you all the very best with your recording endeavors, and I hope you can benefit and learn from the wealth of experience on here. However while it is obvious to me that you are somewhat new to the business of producing and recording, I feel that to infer that those experts, producers and sound engineers who undertake the recordings are 'idiots' only invites them to defend themselves, and to challenge your knowledge. To imply that it is easy to produce a professional, high quality, sellable recording isn't the way to go either. As I said, I wish you good luck and hope you make use of the facilities in the Newport YMCA - I know the building well (am from Newport... ;) )

    If you don't mind my pointing out (others on here have already tried but the message doesn't seem to have been received!!), I really should tell you though - you really ought to have a think about 0VU's choice of username and the obvious level of knowledge he/she has in this subject. I'd consider their questions not as if they don't know the answers... but as challenges to you and your knowledge as to what you might be getting yourself into by considering to undertake recordings of bands. Just a subtle hint... :)

    As I said, good luck though.

    @0VU: You obviously have (and if you'll please excuse the pun) 'sound' and immense experience in the recording and production industry, this is simply without doubt. Can I ask though, that you take it easy on the new guys please... :) I understand your defense at certain comments, and I also understand that the rationale for the questions you ask is perhaps aimed at illustrating the detail of knowledge and experience required to successfully and professionally carry out such an undertaking; but can I ask perhaps to tread a little lighter please... we were all there at one point.


    No animals were harmed in the making of this post :) please take all comments as they were intended... in a non offensive manner, thanks.
  20. Brian Bowen

    Brian Bowen Active Member

    I believe Neumann mics are very expensive, too. ;)

Share This Page