Rath R4FST for sale

Discussion in 'Classifieds' started by BoomtownRath, Feb 10, 2015.

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  1. BoomtownRath

    BoomtownRath Member

    It has taken me 6 months to finally do this but I'm putting the best Trombone I've ever played up for sale.....

    Mick built a prototype for a scandanavian professional on request with slide tuning, this one was number 2!!!

    I'm a bass trombone player and when I last visited the Rath factory to have my bass serviced I was asked to try a new prototype (at the time) and sweet je**s it totally blew me away and I ended up taking it with the intention of doing more tenor work but unfortunately it never materialised!! I played it occasionally at home when I was not busy on bass.

    Better than ANY Conn 88H Elkhart I've ever played!!!

    The harmonics slot so much better with the J-bend compared to a regular tuning crook.

    High range is phenomenal, the only instrument I've hit a high F (bass clef) on.


    *Red brass bell
    *Red brass J bend (where tuning slide on regular Trombone resides!)
    *Bronze slide with tuning (slight weight penalty compared to regular slide but well worth it!)
    *Rotax valve
    *Standard 5 brass leadpipe with extra 5B included.

    Serious bidders only..... Email me if interested and we'll take it from there regarding pictures etc.

    This is a top class instrument that has had very little use since initial purchase in April 2013 and the asking price will reflect as such!!

    List price with Rath is 3800 GBP including options and extra leadpipe.

    No case included, mouthpiece idem dito!!

  2. cockaigne

    cockaigne Member

    You've quoted Rath's list price, but not given an indication as to your asking price?
  3. BoomtownRath

    BoomtownRath Member


    PM sent
  4. cockaigne

    cockaigne Member

    I wouldn't normally post something like this in a public forum, however I feel in this case a word of warning may be in order.

    The OP states a list price from Rath of £3800. Rath's website clearly states that all list prices are inclusive of VAT (@ 20%). VAT only applies to new instruments; the ex-VAT price [equivalent] in this case would be £3040. As you will see from the above, I enquired as to the asking price, because I was interested in this instrument - if you're a Rath person, as I am, who wouldn't be, given the praises sung in the OP (with such a large number of exclamation marks, too).

    The PM sent to me on 16.02.2015 quotes an asking price of £3200 - to which I politely replied pointing out the gap between this and the ex-VAT price on a new instrument. Despite having expressed an interest in the instrument, for this I was branded a "timewaster" and subjected to an unnecessarily abusive message (including further exclamation marks).

    In summary, we have here someone who is either not serious about selling this trombone, and just wants to show it off, or expects to effectively make a profit on a second-hand instrument.

    Those figures again, in summary:

    Rath list price (inc VAT): £3800
    price as new ex VAT: £3040
    asking price as given: £3200

    Doubtless I'll get flamed for this again, so would just like to point out that I wish the OP no ill, and am not trying to obstruct any potential sale of this instrument. I merely wish to inform the unwary, and prevent anyone from being unfairly done by, as could easily happen in this case. This might be considered one of those that, "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is".
  5. Bbmad

    Bbmad Active Member

    I have read and re-read this very carefully.
    Unless Boomtown bought the instrument net of VAT, then he has made no profit. Ie, Boomtown buys for £3800 and sells for £3200 therefore makes a total loss of £600. So unless it can be demonstrated that he did not pay VAT, suggesting a motive of profiteering is unfair.
    For a purchaser, unless they can buy the instrument net of VAT and I fail to see how that is possible then £3200 is the market value for this second hand instrument. Again describing them as being 'done' is erroneous, unless, of course they can buy the instrument new, net of VAT at £3040, they are getting the best price available at this time.
  6. hobgoblin

    hobgoblin Member

    BbMad leave it please. Cockaine is a young lad with the best of intentions. I'm sure he is just taking the figures at face value and means no disrespect.
  7. DS2014

    DS2014 Active Member

    First time in my life I've agreed with Bbmad...There must be something wrong with me today!

    As he says, BoomtownRath is clearly offering what he sees as a good-as-new Rath trombone (which is not your common-or-garden variety, it seems) for the new price less VAT (well, slightly more than). I guess the idea is that anyone who's interested in such a trombone, in as-new condition, could save themselves a tidy sum (£600) by buying it secondhand from Boomtown.

    If you don't wish to do that, Cockaigne, then you could always go to the Rath factory yourself and ask them to knock £760 off their asking price....good luck with that! You could even ask HMRC to not charge you VAT on anything you buy. However, if you expect someone to take a huge financial hit on an instrument that they are selling just because you object to their asking price, and then brand them a swindler because they won't accept your offer, well then...

    A separate issue is the fact that the PM sent to Cockaigne was perhaps OTT.
  8. marc71178

    marc71178 Member

    That is of course assuming that the purchaser isn't buying this for business purposes and is VAT registered.
  9. 2nd tenor

    2nd tenor Well-Known Member

    PM's are normally meant not to be shared (PM meaning private message). However if Cockaigne feels that he's been on the rough end of bad behaviour then he might choose to share all or any part of the private message(s) relating to his offer with us.

    The value of anything is a function of supply and demand, if I were to make an offer on a virtually new trombone then it would be less than 80% of the new price (perhaps I'd offer 66%) and if the trombone was a special or one off I'd be thinking more like less than 70% (perhaps 50%). My first valuation might be harsh, cheeky even to some, but if then vendor doesn't like it then he can decline the offer and suggest why a higher value is correct. That's what's call negotiation and it could result in a sale - which is surely what the vendor would like to achieve.
  10. DS2014

    DS2014 Active Member

    It would be entirely your prerogative: but if you offered me £2508 (66%) for a £3800, good-as-new, instrument, then I'd call you a timewaster and ask you not to contact me again. I probably wouldn't even listen to your counter-offer or try to reason with you on account of you being a timewaster. What's more, if you offered me £1900 (50%) for an instrument that was no.2 off the production line, then I would probably call you something a lot worse than timewaster.
  11. Andrew Norman

    Andrew Norman Active Member

    If the above were the case then he would need to charge VAT when re-selling the instrument.
  12. Bbmad

    Bbmad Active Member

    Very succinctly put 2T.
    In any negotiation, both parties have no obligation until price and terms have been agreed. If no agreement can be reached, be it a difference in value or another reason then both parties are free to walk away.
    Personally, I don't find the use of exclamation marks offensive, but if in the course of negotiations something has been said which is 'out of order' then there are means and ways of finding a resolution.
    This makes me think of a phrase to whom I am unsure as to who to attribute to:
    'people these days know the price of everything and the value of nothing'
  13. DS2014

    DS2014 Active Member

    As with most clever sayings, it was Oscar Wilde
  14. marc71178

    marc71178 Member

    I know that, hence bringing VAT up in the first place. I was assuming the current seller was not including VAT but if the prospective purchaser can reclaim VAT (unlikely but possible for a professional musician) then they're not saving on the price of the second hand instrument.
  15. Feel My Rath

    Feel My Rath Member

    Not everything depreciates in value in the instrument world, either. I'm not saying this is the case here, but worth baring in mind for the future.
  16. 2nd tenor

    2nd tenor Well-Known Member

    If we set aside the (excellent) maufacturer of this particular product - I don't recall mentioning the manufacturer in my post - then perhaps you might change your stance. I wonder what it (your stance) would be for a Chinese trombone? some go for remarkably little (compared to their new price) on Ebay and I suggest prices there are typically not too far from general market levels. The buyer needs to protect him/herself against loss and sellers need to understand such caution and then engage potential buyers.

    What is a time waster? I'd say someone who has no intention of buying at all or at anywhere near what they already know is, and can be demonstrated to be, the market price. It's entirely the perogative of a vendor to reject an offer, but should he/she reject an offer which is a little above the market price then (IMHO) they waste the time of the buyer. However, as vendor and buyer seek to find a commonly acceptable value, a little wasted time should be expected and politely put up with in any sale or purchase.
  17. Bbmad

    Bbmad Active Member

    Another top class post 2T, you are on form.
    What is a time waster? Well in this context, someone who does not have a genuine interest in purchasing the instrument but some other reason for contacting the vendor.
    For example, I happen to drive an automobile, I am satisfied with my automobile and whilst I quite like what I see on Top Gear, I have no desire to buy a new automobile. I would be considered a time waster if I were to visit an automobile shop, discuss with the salesman the features of the vehicle, take it on a test drive, knowing full well that I don't intend to make a purchase.
    There are many people out there looking to make an easy buck, sometimes dishonestly but generally I think people are usually capable of making their own minds as to whether they see the value in making a purchase.
  18. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    If I might inject a little observation into proceedings, I recently sold a double-Hagmann-valved Rath R9 bass trombone in good condition for £2,500, including 3 leadpipes and a nice case that I'd bought for it. I did not consider myself ripped off on the deal. Bought new, the package would have cost approx. £4,500. The trombone here sounds interesting, but even were I looking for one exactly like this (alas, I'm not), my money would stay in my pocket at this price. Just a little friendly feedback!
  19. BoomtownRath

    BoomtownRath Member

    Hi guys,

    So many replies I could quote but all of you to some extent are on the money regarding VAT and asking price!! (Exclamation marks, don't you just love 'em?)

    I refrained on replying to cockaigne on the open forum because I find the whole petty arguement on a thread where I have put my Trombone up for sale a bit of a distraction to say the least.

    Secondly as somone already mentioned I replied to
    cockaigne by PM as in "private message" and regardless of who said what, when or where in my opinion private means private so I don't really see any point in trying to explain something that IMO is obvious common sense to any reasonably intelligent individual.

    Anyway back to business!!!

    As I mentioned in my OP I have sought advice from those-in-the-know regarding a possible asking price...... I mean anybody in the trombone circuit who has any experience regarding instruments has some sort of idea what a Bach 42B or a Conn 88H is worth or even a standard Rath R4F has a 'general' guide re-sale value nowadays on the open market which makes having what I myself to be an 'exclusive example' of an instrument that doesn't come on the market too often.

    We all at some stage get to a point in our lives (house purchase in this case) when money is required and anything that is not being used has to be sold...... When I purchased the instrument money was not an issue, I didn't see it as a financial investment or I would have bought gold instead of sculptured brass of various alloys! I have played the trombone on a couple of rare opportunities I had to play tenor. I'm not a professional player nor do I practice these days as much as I should and bass bieng my main instrument is also something I can just lift and play and generally get through 90% of what is required before any study is needed. Should I find money from another scource in the next six months and don't particularly need to sell then I will happily take it off the market.

    I know that if/when I sell my R4FST there will come a day that I think "damn, wish I never shifted it!!" which is also the reason I'm not desperate to sell, I'm trying to free up cash but I'm not homeless or hungry!! (oops, more exclamation marks)

    Advice re-sale price from those-in-the-know is between 3000 and 3400 depending on how fast I need to sell..... Anyone with half a brain that plays for a living and can infact claim the VAT back would need their head examined should they not buy a similar model direct from the manufacturer, I am selling on the open market where the vast majority of potential buyers would themselves have to stomp up the VAT when purchasing from new so I am in no way obligated to take a 20% hit on the price before I put a re-sale value on it!!!!!

    Thank you again to the people who have taken the time to reply to this thread.

    I harbour no ill toward cockaigne personally but he did originally IMO come across as a timewaster hence my somewhat unfriendly PM to him, I feel that were we standing face to face instead of safely and securely behind a screen that both our reactions would've been different but hey ho.....

    Instrument still for sale, feel free to ask questions preferably via PM!

    Thank you and good night!


  20. DS2014

    DS2014 Active Member

    fair enough, Dave, but the issue under discussion here is that it was being insinuated that the original poster was in some way trying to swindle people when he was doing no such thing. You've a right to keep your money in your pocket, just as the seller has a right to not sell to you. Using the car dealer analogy, if you don't want to buy a Mercedes, then don't buy one, but don't go around suggesting the dealer is a swindler just because he won't sell you one at the price you want to pay
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