PUBLIC Comparing of Contest Remarks

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by midnight_euph, Mar 15, 2011.

  1. midnight_euph

    midnight_euph Member

    We've all done exclaimed 'How the hell did X get THAT result?' after a contest.

    Would it be 'so' bad for brass banding as a whole to consider putting up the contest remarks so that we can actually compare and understand what's going on? After all, many of us sit and listen to other bands and are sometimes stunned at a result.

    Having listened to the Fourth Section in Bedworth on Sunday there was one 'shock' result that has left many of us scratching our heads in confusion as to how they did NOT get a placing. To be able to compare adjudicators remarks may clarify such issues and improve EVERY band in a section.

    It may also help keep adjudicators focused on the fact that by having such public comparisons, their work is open to scrutiny, just as ours is!

    I would suggest the comparion go up by draw position, then remarks, then final placing for the WHOLE of the section.

    I've given a suggestion of what could improve banding ... and would appreciate your thoughts as to why this SHOULD NOT happen?
    (and before anyone says 'how naive... I've been competing for nearly 40 years lol.)

  2. Bass Trumpet

    Bass Trumpet Active Member

    Not a bad idea. I have no issue with most of our experienced adjudicators, but there are one or two out there (names withheld for legal reasons) who have shoehorned themselves into brass band adjudication with little or no track record or experience. I know of at least one adjudicator on duty during the recent areas who has virtually no track record as a band player, conductor or adjudicator but has (somehow) managed to jump in at the higher level of adjudication.

    Any adjudicator worth his/her fee won't think twice about justifying their decisions. It the charlatans who should be worrying.
  3. astreet83

    astreet83 Member

    I listened to the whole 2nd section on Sunday at Bedworth.

    I got the 1st and 2nd places right and the last four however the middle results I got completely the wrong way. It would be good to see how those middle order band's remarks read.

    Would also just like to say well done to all band in the 2nd section on Sunday, it was a great contest and there was some fine playing!!
  4. Thirteen Ball

    Thirteen Ball Active Member

    As alluded to in another thread, recordings are notoriously tricky things.

    A band in a different seating formation, or even seated a foot or so to the left/right/rear of where the last band was sitting can sound utterly and completely different. Brighouse's basses sound like a complete nonentity on the recording on soundlcoud - however I can assure you that they've one of the biggest and richest bass sounds around! Keith Johnson (KMJ Recordings on here) has posted some very good stuff on the B&R and Fodens threads as regards the paticularities of recording a band, so I'd reccomend reading this for a better explanation than my ramblings!

    I would be very wary of comparing recordings and hoping from that to justify or question any band's placing.

    It's easy to count the splits form a recording, but to hear all the inner detail? To listen for minute errors of tuning? sweetness of tone? Depth of sound? All these things would require a very careful microphone setup - which is simply not possible in the context of a contest.

    I'm all for ways of ensuring our adjudicators are performing to the best of their abilities. Any organisation needs periodic review in order to ensure standards are being maintained. But I doubt that public posting of recordings is a solution in itself.

    Let's face it, I've sat next to people I know well in contests and come up with very different results to them, and it's to be expected that happens in the box too because adjudication at the moment is entirely subjective and no-one knows what any particular adjudicator is after until the results come out.

    I don't see any harm in it - but I doubt it will vindicate anyone in the aftermath of a controversial result.
  5. Ste69

    Ste69 Member

    We have (in the past) published remarks on our band website I think

    *runs off to check website*

  6. tubafran

    tubafran Active Member

    Andi I'm not sure this was the intention of the OP - I suspect he/she was refering to the Midlands Area thread and the reference there to one bands shock result. I think he was asking to view copies of the bands adjudicators notes for contests.
  7. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    I may be wrong on this, but I've always been under the impression that this particular Fran is a she...
  8. Rapier

    Rapier Supporting Member

    They said Remarks. No mention of recordings. :wink:
  9. tubafran

    tubafran Active Member

    Well that's at least two of us in agreement over something :)
  10. Brian

    Brian Member

    yup: 10/10 this Fran is a she :)
  11. wkt

    wkt Member

    The North of Ireland Bands' Association publishes the remarks for every band in its annual championship contest, in a booklet, available for all to purchase, about 2 months after the contest. I am sure it is a hassle to do so, but it is useful to have.
  12. Thirteen Ball

    Thirteen Ball Active Member

    Ah - Yes, looking back I do appear somewhat foolish now..... :oops:

    I suppose it can't do any harm to know what a band were criticised for if they finished inexplicably low, or what the winners did right that other bands may have missed - but as with recordings, I'd be wary of anything taken out of context.

    The other thing to say is that I've been in bands who have received solidly negative comments when the band finished near the top, as often as they've received glowing remarks and ended up way down the order.

    Maybe that says more about how adjudicators write their remarks than the possible merits of sharing them though...
  13. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    Dodgy handshakes, anyone ... ?
  14. Baton twirler

    Baton twirler Member

    Sounds a good idea to me! While we are on the subject of adjudication, mention has been made of using an Adjudication Criteria in the past by various "famous" names, Alan Morrison and Stephen Mead to name two, if this criteria is being used by adjudicators can all bands have a copy sent to them by the contest commitee prior to the commencement of the contest. This should then go some way to alleviating the calls of "what do they want or what do we have to do to win".
  15. Straightmute

    Straightmute Active Member

    They're on the ABBA website.


    I don't think the Round Table engage in that practise.
  17. Rebecca Owen

    Rebecca Owen Member

    Maybe a CD of all the bands performances would be helpful. We as musicians can't remember the 20 individual bands performances any better than the adjudicators.
    That way we can listen to the performances by the placed bands and hear what they did that was so good.

    The thought that I was left with was, if as one of the adjudicators stated - they could only go with what was on the score, how come the bands that played the dance movement at 96beats per minute as was written on the score, were penalised for playing at the correct speed? I know of two bands, who were placed pretty low, who had comments on their remarks saying the movement sounded slow and laboured. Well it would compared to the bands that were whipping through it at more than 125 beats a minute. How is that sticking to the score?

    One of these bands also had comments saying that the first movement should have shorter/snappier crotchets to improve the style. I don't see how you can play short and snappy crotchets, when the part clearly shows legato lines over the notes :-?. Again it seems this band were penalised for playing what was on the score. :(
  18. nacnud101

    nacnud101 New Member

    I know that in New Zealand and in Youth Championships, in this country, that they record the performance and the remarks are actually narrated over the performance.

    Alternatively adjudicators with ears would help!
  19. tubafran

    tubafran Active Member

    Thats a fair comment but considering that the erratta went out to confirm that the 96bpm was correct (presummably due to the speed of the Area Cd recording) surely they should have been looking for speeds as marked i.e. "circa 96" which of course can be faster or slower than 96.

    The week before at Bradford we aimed for just above 96 and our comments were "fine tempo...." and "rather steady tempo but exactly as marked - thankyou"

    Different adjudicators on different days hey?
  20. nacnud101

    nacnud101 New Member

    Last edited: Mar 15, 2011

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