Poaching (Tapping) of Players ...

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by zak, Aug 21, 2006.

  1. zak

    zak Member

    In my opinion there is no such thing as POACHING. A band can only ASK someone if they are interested in joining thats it. If they do then thats THE PLAYERS CHOICE and not the band surely. Why should a so called top band pay a fee???? Thats just my opinion.

    Is it not natural to want to progress in whatever we do???
  2. johnmartin

    johnmartin Active Member

    Up to a poiint I agree but, there should be protection for lower section bands. I've seen it far too many times in the past where bands struggle because higher section bands continually sign players from them. There are several things that could be investigated to mitigate this.

    1) No tapping up of players. Bands must only be able to approach the secretary of the registered band to ask permission to speak to a player. If the band refuses then that's their problem. They could be left with a registered player who doesn't want to be there. Rather like Celtic at the moment with Stan Petrov. There aren't many bands who could allow such a situation to continue indefinetley.

    2) Transfer fees. Introduce a system of scaled transfer fees which protect the band losing young players. I'm not taking premiership scale fees here. Perhaps a top level of £100 paid to the releasing band depending on the players age and years of service. Such a system only to protect young players. Once a player reaches a certain age they become a free agent.

    3) Player loans to complement one day transfers. A big band could loan their "squad" players to lower section bands with the proviso that they could be recalled when needed. Once recalled they may not be loaned out again until the end of the contesting season.
  3. nook1938

    nook1938 Supporting Member

    How can any of the above work???

    It would be too complex/costly to implement, some bands have not got the "pulling power" as their rivals, what about the poor dad who as to drive the extra miles because his child as been "loaned" out.

    Bands have a hard time trying to organise a Job, they would never be up to remembering what player came from where or how much did the cost come to.

    The answer to the original question lies in all the posts/threads TMP's have submitted, thats if there is an answer????

    Last edited: Aug 27, 2006
  4. johnmartin

    johnmartin Active Member

    In real terms what would the extra cost be? Don't really see your point about "pulling power" surely that's the same regardless. How would that change if we implemented any changes to the transfer system. As for driving extra miles, if a player doesn't want to be loaned then they don't need to sign. A band only holds a registration they don't "own" a person and cannot compel them to do anything they don't want to. What about all the dads who currently drive extra miles because junior is playing for a "big" band rather than the local village band.

    Why do they need to remember where they came from? A signed player is a signed player, it is that simple. Also, why would you have to remember how much they cost. You only need to know their age and years of service if they ever wanted to transfer.
  5. I don't know about other areas or lower section bands but having played in a few 4th and a 3rd section band, I have suggested doing a joint concert with a band in a higher section occaisionally. This hasn't been recieved with much enthusiasm. To me, it seems like a good opportunity to improve relationships locally, youngsters to be more inspired and to gain tips/ideas from the MD and more experienced players. Having been to many rehearsals for a top section band (to listen), I think our youngsters would benefit from seeing how a top band plays and rehearses. If there isn't time for a joint concert/rehearsals, could it be just a visit to a top band rehearsal?
  6. BeatTheSheep

    BeatTheSheep Member

    best retire all string groups then

    anyway, here's my 3 pennyworths:

    in no particular order

    1) recruitment - getting people interested in joining and retaining them. There don't seem to be any players just floating around anymore, which causes the better bands to poach from the lower. I can't see anybody stopping this except by educating players (especially younger ones) the effects of leaving a band that has invested time, effort, and given an opportunity for a great life in music to you. The fact that once you have moved, you find it difficult to go back, and you might not get whatever this nice, friendly band down the road promised you etc etc. Do this before they get asked.

    Adult players usually know their mind a bit better but kids heads can be easily turned, especially if their parent thinks they are better then they actually are!

    As for music education and their attitude to bands, we should treat them with the same contempt they treat us. Don't get me started.

    2) culture - mainly the things that have caused everyone to be so busy that they can't go to band twice a week anymore. There are a number of things that have caused this - peoples' jobs aren't exactly 9-5 like they used to be, and people work weekends. That's just one reason. The youth end of the band world are bombarded with things they could be doing, and banding is just one of them. I wouldn't say it isn't appealing to them, or hard to get them interested, but they need to know it is going to be hard work. Not like a playstation.

    3) Public perception - Don't really know the answer to this one. I have suggested a celeb brass band programme like strictly come dancing, which would be great for the simple reason that it would show excactly what banding is like. The public and media image of bands is so far removed from the truth that it would probably take something that major to shift it.

    We also need to make people realise that banding is part of our cultural heritage, and needs to be kept going. Why, because the level of attainment is amazing for supposedly amateur groups and always has been (for its time). It's time to make people realise that they aren't joining a bunch of karoake standard no-hopers when they join a band.

    not number 4) I don't see contesting results as a problem. If you always play well, you win some prizes. Who's ever taken a trophy back because they thought they were a bit lucky? The judges opinion is only that, an opinion. Take it on the chin and practice harder for next time.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2006
  7. nook1938

    nook1938 Supporting Member

    Who would want to be approached by the Sec of a Band to say that another Band wants to have a loan of me, when I am quite happy to play with the Band of my choice and to sit there knowing there was a price on my head and my mate was on the "transfer market" for more money than me.

    This my opinion and I still think it will not work and again my opinion, something must be done to stop the slide of player "shortage".

  8. johnmartin

    johnmartin Active Member

    No. You're approaching this from the football view of things. I do not envisage bands putting players on the "transfer list" to raise cash. I am only talking about a protection for lower section bands where anyone wishing to transfer a player from them must first approach the registered band to ask permission. If the band accept and the player then decides to transfer then some form of fair compensation is paid to the releasing band for developing that player and for the loss they will have from no longer having said player in their band.
  9. Charmed

    Charmed Active Member

    With regards to the above - don't forget this is a hobby. Players are not paid to play in a band. What if a player wants to move to another band, but the recieving band can't afford to pay compensation to the releasing band. Does that player have to miss out on transferring? And don't think it is just lower section bands that lose out to 'better' bands. Being with a band that has been in the 3rd section and progressed through to the Championship section, I know about losing players to other bands. This happens for various reasons. We have had some now top players that either started with us or played with us at one time or another, and it is disappointing when they choose to move on, but that's banding. Unless the movement changes from amateur to professional, there isn't really anything you can do about it.

    On another point - I remember (get the violin out!) when if a band wanted to borrow a player they contacted the secretary in the first instance. These days players are contacted directly. Perhaps a return to contacting the secretary of band may stop what some feel is poaching. Everything is out in the open. It's very rare if I know one of our players has helped another band out. Usually I find out by accident. That is when the panic starts, especially as you know your own player is covering a vacant chair and not covering someone's absence.

    But at the end of the day, you have to just hope that your own band is where players want to be and trust that they won't be 'enticed' away by better opportunities. If they are, you need to look at the reasons they have moved. Location, 'better' band, higher position, better engagements, payments. There has to be a reason why players choose to leave one band and go to another and that's down to the management of the band to try and keep everyone happy. Impossible at times, I know! :biggrin:
  10. johnmartin

    johnmartin Active Member

    Good post Susan, and that statement above highlights the biggest fear about current guesting rules. A return to contacting the secretary would be a welcome move.
  11. drunk monkey

    drunk monkey New Member

    Is this a joke? How exactly do you believe this could be enforced? If i want to dep with a band it is my decision and any fee recieved is quite frankly the business of only 2 people. Sorry to be blunt but it is a fact that if a player is good enough, or desires enough to play for a top section band its going to happen. I certainly wouldn't want to be 'loaned' to a lower section band, or stopped from depping with a lower section band at any time.
  12. dyl

    dyl Active Member

    Unless of course, you didn't have an instrument of your own, and the band in need of a dep didn't have one either, then I guess you'd need your band's permission to borrow their instrument would you not? Then again, it'd be pretty difficult to contact the secretary of 'Feckley Band'.......................... :rolleyes:
  13. PeterBale

    PeterBale Moderator Staff Member

    I don't personally see that as a viable option at all. If anything, it could be even more unsettling than a player being spoken to direct, who may not in fact be interested in moving in the first place. In what way would the situation be helped by the band being made aware of another band's interest in that situation, when all it is likely to do is to imply an unfair lack of loyalty on behalf of the player concerned?

    It is unrealistic to compare it to the world of football, where players have signed a contract for a set term, and are being paid for their services.
  14. starperformer

    starperformer Member

    lots of opinion on here seems to think that young players progressing from worse bands to better bands is a bad thing - surely that is in fact the idea and aim of lower section bands.

    this appears to be a common observation - but in fact the UK is a country that is now dominated by professional service industries rather than the heavy industry of days gone by. i very much doubt that there have ever been so many 9-5 workers in the UK as there are today.
  15. FlugelD

    FlugelD Member

    And lower section bands should not aspire to be top bands themselves.... :confused:

    I hope that comment was intended to be tongue-in-cheek :rolleyes:
  16. starperformer

    starperformer Member

    not at all. no band can progress at the rate that a talented young player can. nor should they necessarily try - many, many bands run into real political problems and fall apart this way, it is one of the biggest causes of problems in brass banding today, in my opinion. of course, all bands should be aiming to better themselves, but for things to work out right, they should do so with the players that they have at present, and acknowledge their position within a wider system.
  17. johnmartin

    johnmartin Active Member

    Absolute tosh!!!

    I've been with Lochgelly for 16 years and in that time we dropped from 1st section right down to fourth section and then all the way back up again. How did we do this. By finding and keeping good young players allowing them to improve and in turn improve the overall quality of the band. Yes, we have lost people on the way and I accept that as a fact of life, doesn't mean that I have to like it.
  18. stevetrom

    stevetrom Well-Known Member

    I think what is meant by a '9-5' job is one where you go to work (at whatever time that is), stay till the end of the working day (or shift) and then go home and forget about work until the next day.

    Nominally I work 8.30 - 5.00 (like many people) but the nature of my job menas that I am expected to travel at short notice around the country/world, be available (are'nt mobile phones wonderfull:mad:) for technical support practically 24 hours a day, and I can't remember the last time I worked a 'normal' day and took my hour for lunch.

    I'm sure there are many people who have a similar type of job, it's just they way thiongs are now.
  19. FlugelD

    FlugelD Member

    At least be consistent.

    How do bands
    if, as soon as a younger player has enough experience, they're 'poached' by a higher section band?

    (Obviously, (younger) players applying for advertised vacancies is a totally different matter.)
  20. starperformer

    starperformer Member

    even if the extreme picture that you paint were common amongst 9-5 workers (it isn't), it would still not be a reason for giving up on banding unless you were working past 7.30 on 6 or 7 nights of the week - so i think the original point has been lost somewhat.

    in addition, i find personally that band rehearsals are a unique and successful way of unwinding from the day to day stresses and strains of full time employment.