Number of Adjudicators

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by E flat fred, Mar 4, 2008.

  1. E flat fred

    E flat fred Member

    Please can someone from the North West area explain to fellow band members why there is only ONE adjudicator for the Fourth section when there are 23 bands participating and in the Second section only ONE adjudicator for 20 bands.
    Is the reason finance, shortage of adjudicators or the lack of willingness of the Adjudicators to visit the NW Area.
    It seems a great pity when we have such a large number of bands competing, that the sucess and progress of the bands can be decided by just ONE person.
    Other area finals held last weekend and this coming weekend the majprtiy have TWO adjudicators in the sacred box
  2. imthemaddude

    imthemaddude Active Member

    We used to only have one. I think the north east haven't changed either. A few years ago people thought it would be fairer with two and so some areas changed to two but others haven't.
  3. bertiebass

    bertiebass New Member

    we have had a similar thread before. I don't understand why it would or would not be fairer. It dosen't matter if there are 1,2 or 10 adujucators,
    Its the same for everyone taking part in that particular contest, so its fair and dosen't bother me and it shouldn't bother others.
  4. AndyCat

    AndyCat Active Member

    NW area number of Adjudicators

    I questioned the number of adjudicators for the NW area formally last year, as did Wire Brass. The relevant bits of their reply are below:-

    " 14th May 2007,

    The North West is one of 4 regions which currently only have one adjudicator per section. The National rules allow a region to appoint as many as they want so until this rule is changed there will not be a level playing field in this matter...

    ..we have noted the comments about the ideal choice for an adjudicator and will certainly consider these when looking at the list for 2008. With regard to costs for an adjudicator, to fund an extra one would mean an on cost to bands. Also quality of adjudicators must be taken into account. This region chooses from the British Federation/ABBA approved list. This sometimes limits us to availability due to those who also conduct or play with bands as well as too many regional events on one weekend. For us it would mean finding 10 adjudicators for our one day. Quality is always a priority with the region and we have tried over the years to have the best for each section of the championships.

    My concern about appointing 2 adjudicators is obviously availability, cost, and do they sit in one box or seperate boxes. In one box they come up with the same points and result, so are two heads better than one if they are kept together. I do not know the answer to this one...."

    The most pertinent bit is at the end of the letter though,

    "The Regional Committee intend to take your points into consideration when making decisions about the 2008 event and on their behalf I do thank you for bringing these to our attention. Too many bands seem to think they can get things changed by comments on the internet. As one person put it, if they want to complain do so to the only people who can take action - The Regional Committee."

    As far as I'm aware, only 2 bands officially questioned the number of adjudicators last year, ourselves (Freckleton) and Wire. If you're not happy, write to them! I'll even give you the address:

    Peter Bates
    643 Liverpool Road
    Peel Green
    M30 7BY

    Peter is the Regional Secretary and a very approachable guy, and does value constructive comments, so drop him a line!

    Andy Cattanach
  5. E flat fred

    E flat fred Member

    thank you for you very full reply.
  6. The Wizard

    The Wizard Member

    Now then Fred. Hope you are not spending too much time on this one. Sunday will be here before we know it!
  7. I would personally prefer two adjudicators for the NW area as I think it can help to get a more balanced result. I appreciate it's probably not cheap to hire the Winter Gardens, and I couldn't imagine using another venue as the atmosphere on the day is by far the best of any Area I've been to, but if finance is a problem then I would suggest taking it out of the prize fund. I can't believe anybody enters the Area for the money.

    Last edited: Mar 5, 2008
  8. Cornet Nev.

    Cornet Nev. Member

    Well now the contest is over, the results may create a storm over this issue, there were one or two people disappointed over the points and positions allocated for their bands. Nothing new I agree, but watch this space as they say.
  9. This is a question i asked on the coach on our return journey from Backpool. Yes, i understand that the Winter Gardens are expensive to hire and an extra adjudicator per section would put an increase in fess for a band, but if EACH area contest are to be run on the same par, then ALL area contests should have the same amount of adjudicators per section. If this means changing venues, then so be it. There are probably a number of venues in the area that would be cheaper and are able to provide the same standard as the Winter Gardens, eg RNCM or Bridgewater Hall. If this also means holding the event over 2 days, then so be it.
  10. Thirteen Ball

    Thirteen Ball Active Member

    There are pros and cons to either approach. Don't automatically assume that more adjudicators is a good thing.

    Two adjudicators (or more) could well give a more 'across the board' view of a band' performance - however it doesn't always work like that.

    The amount of times (Having two adjudicators at the yorkshire areas) our comments have had diametrically opposed remarks, is starting to get annoying. I can only think of two instances offhand, but there have definitely been more:

    Rienzi, 2005:
    One adjudicator writes "Great trombones" Other one writes "Trombones thin and scrappy"

    James Cook, 2008:
    One Adjudicator writes "Cornet handles solo very well and nicely" Other one writes "Cornet sounds extremely nervous"

    I'm not coming out and saying that the one which was kinder to our performance is necessarily the right one, but based on that, it seems difficult to get a unified approach where more than one adjudicator is involved.
  11. Anno Draconis

    Anno Draconis Well-Known Member

    I don't think the Winter Gardens are actually more expensive than other venues; I think the booking fee is subsidised by the bar takings to an extent. My understanding (not from the area committee I hasten to add) is that the contest switched from the Guild Hall in Preston to the Winter Gardens over 20 years ago because the Guild Hall were unable or unwilling to offer a similar deal. Peter Bates would be able (and I'm sure quite willing) to explain the finances in more detail once the post-contest dust has settled.

    So I don't think it's a cost issue so much as an availability issue. Try finding 10 nationally recognised adjudicators who aren't conducting/playing/judging at one of the other 3 contests taking place today, then factor in protests like the recent LSC fuss about Peter Bassano judging in Yorkshire, and the list of possible options grows somewhat thin. Although I understand the arguments about splitting the contest over 2 days, I think it would spoil the unique atmosphere we get now. In any case Peter Bates indicated from the stage at the 4th section results that the contest will remain on one day for "the foreseeable future".

    Also - and I've said this before - why is there this general assumption that two adjudicators are automatically better than one? Thirteen Ball^ has already given examples of inconsistency, and I could give several examples of decisions by multiple adjudicator panels at the Open, European and Masters that have been at odds with the feeling in the hall (and sometimes with each other). What other areas do is irrelevant, since we're not judged in comparison with other areas, merely other bands in our own area.
  12. Bayerd

    Bayerd Active Member

    If it's cheaper to hold the event at Bridgewater Hall, I'll show my **** on town hall steps.
  13. JR

    JR Member

    ...I'm never judging with that bloke Wadsworth ever again

    The bell was out of tune every time he hit it

    And one band started before Kev could reach it, causing mad panic and much molto allegro writing...

    John R
  14. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member


    Or the RNCM.
  15. steve_r

    steve_r Member

    As a follow up to this.. Can anyone explain the process of adjudication with 2 adjudicators?

    It seems to me that they should ideally be in separate booths and their results or positions totalled/averaged to give the final result, but this does not seem to normally be the case.

    I wonder if 2 is actually better than 1 without this?

  16. Thirteen Ball

    Thirteen Ball Active Member

    We get two adjudicators who discuss the reletive merits of any performance, it's good points and bad points, before each award a mark.

    I'd guess the idea of this is if one adjudicator gives an excessively high/low mark, then the impact of that is halved. Also two sets of ears listening may hear things that one adjudicator alone misses.

    I seem to recall for the british open a few years back (2004?) that three adjudicators in three separate boxes gave their own remarks, and the scores were combined.

    I seem to recall hearing that this approach was short-lived because none of the adjudicators had the band that won in first place overall. (Please correct me if that's just hearsay as I wasn't there at the time!)

    Whether that was a good or bad thing is a point to discuss. After all, they had the broadest appeal on the day and won more points than the rest.

    I suppose it's a bit like formula 1 where you can win a world title without winning a single race as long as you're second all the time.
  17. Anno Draconis

    Anno Draconis Well-Known Member

    The Masters did (does?) this having consulted the bands on their favoured system; I seem to recall there have been some controversies where fancied bands have been deprived of a win because one of the three placed them significantly lower than the others, thus proving that there is in fact no system that will please anyone except the winning band ;)
  18. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    That'll be the YBS debacle then ;)
  19. The one that sticks out is 2001, when YBS were placed 1st, 1st and 7th by the adjudicators meaning that Brighouse (3,3,2) were the overall winners.
  20. I realise the remarks I'll get for this one before I type but....why doesn't the composer get in the box; unless deaf or deceased (actually I've often wondered if he was anyway after reading the results)? Then s/he can say what they were looking for?

    I guess taking that further, why can't a contest be like Master Chef? If there was only one judge there it would always go down to who made the best pudding!!!! "You know I like puddings but that was awful!"

    John Maines "Lets look at Grimy first Denis"

    Denis Wilby " Yes John. I think that the cornet solo was supreme. I mean those cadenzas were great."

    John Maines "I think the basses were too heavy. I mean I think they worked well with the horns in the first movement, but I think their conductor just wasn't awake when he thought up that last movement. I've had a bitter taste in my mouth about it since they finished."

    Denis: "I agree. But John I think that that second movement was soft, it was sweet, it had a little bite to it.

    John "Listen Denis you know I like trombones. You know I've played some top C's in my time, but Brett from Dyke was amazing! Completely mind blowing."

    Denis: "I think I prefered Browny from Grimethorpe. Come on then John, whose it gonna be?"

    John Maines: "Denis. Festival Music just DOESNT GET ANY TOUGHER THAN THIS!!!"