No Scottish bands at Nationals?

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by Alyn James, Sep 11, 2014.

  1. Alyn James

    Alyn James Member

    The British Open, the National Finals.....
    If there's a "Yes" vote can there be Scottish bands at these contests? (only asking)
     
  2. DS2014

    DS2014 Active Member

  3. bassmittens

    bassmittens Member

    Scottish banding, already has independence ...........the SBBA, it's own registry and it's own rules :)
     
  4. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    "The National Brass Band Championships of Great Britain"
    "British Open Brass Band Championships"

    The clue's in the name - "Great Britain" = the big island in this archipelago, which contains all of England, Wales, and Scotland. "British" = (according to the dictionary) stuff to do with Great Britain - though I would argue that it could reasonably also refer to other islands in the "British isles", which would include Ireland. But then the Open bit is important too, implying an inclusiveness of access that we see with non-UK bands having played there on a number of occasions.

    Case closed. Except possibly for the Manx bands that compete at Blackpool, who seem to fall outside the title of the Nationals anyhow. Maybe we should make them hold their own parallel contest.
     
  5. DS2014

    DS2014 Active Member

    Nope. The name "Great Britain" only came into being when the kingdoms of Scotland and England united. Technically, Great Britain will cease to exist next Friday if the Scots vote Yes. That said, I still think Scots bands will be able to compete. But your argument is wrong...though you're normally right!
     
  6. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    I think you are confusing the political entity with the geographical entity - see the Wikipedia quote below, taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain. But then so are the owners of the Nationals, so confusion is to be expected on all hands...

    The island was known as "Great Britain" way before any form of the union of England and Scotland - hence why it would have made sense to people at the time for James to style himself this way.
     
  7. tromguy3

    tromguy3 New Member

    well, if they vote yes and leave the UK then in my mind that's them not at the national finals. But like most things, I guess, "we will be independent but still want to be part of the things we like." lol
     
  8. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Active Member

    Don't think so. Ptolemy and Bede both used the term (for different reasons). In the Anglo-Saxon period it was used to distinguish us from 'Little Britain' which was the area now known as Brittany.

    (Beat me to it, Dave....)
     
  9. DS2014

    DS2014 Active Member

    Also, Philip, note Dave's point that the use of the words National and Great Britain in the same title suggests that it is the political, rather than geographical, entity that is meant
     
  10. katieeuph

    katieeuph Member

    I'm not very up on my politics, but this pretty much sums up what I think about the whole situation!
     
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  12. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    I think it's just a confused usage, to be honest with you. Whether it was deliberately done confusedly for some purpose or not, I don't know. But "National" suggests political and "Great Britain" suggests geographical (else it would have been "Great Britain and Northern Ireland" - the title was a 1945 adoption, so far as I'm aware - pre-war it was just the "National Band Festival").
     
  13. kierendinno

    kierendinno Member

    As others have said, 'Great Britain' refers to an island, not the sovereign state that is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. With that in mind, there is a case for Scottish bands to remain involved in the set-up if they so wish. Unless Alex Salmond plans to physically detach Scotland from the island of Great Britain, it will always be part of Great Britain geographically if not politically. There is definitely some ambiguity in the wording though. Personally, it would be quite bizarre to have a 'national' championship that contains bands from a foreign country, but I suppose that will be one of the many ambiguous results if Scotland votes yes.
     
  14. stevetrom

    stevetrom Well-Known Member

    Simple solution.

    change the name to the National Cahampionship, my nationality is UK (check your passport).

    if Scotland wants to become independant it should not be allowed to pick and chose parts of uk culture, lifestyle, etc to keep attached to.

    youre on your won now ( well you are if you vote to be)
     
  15. 2nd tenor

    2nd tenor Active Member

    Pretty much my view too; I'd much rather they stayed but if they choose to desert us then they should expect to pay all the costs of the split. I'm not impressed about the way the 'apple cart' is being upset and feel that the rest of the UK is being black mailed.
     
  16. John Brooks

    John Brooks Well-Known Member

    This sounds very similar to the Quebec situation here in Canada. The common thread is that the separatist movements in both issues appear to want to "have their cake and eat it" too.
     
  17. mattthebass

    mattthebass Member


    Firstly in my opinion the yes vote will have and should have no impact on whether Scottish bands can compete in the National Finals, to me it is just a title and the brass band 'family' doesn't really hold much regard govermental borders.

    But never one to miss out on a good discussion. Would the Romans have considered Scotland when refering to Britain/British. Seeing as they had built a ruddy great big wall to keep the little tykes out of the Empire, I would presume that a Roman refering to Britain would really be referring to their empire, England and Wales? Any historians out there?
     
  18. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Active Member

    Sort of! The Romans did invade Scotland but were driven back and then built Hadrian's wall to keep the Picts at bay. They called the province Britannia after the Britons that had lived there from the Iron Age. This initially included Scotland but after they retreated they referred to the bit above the wall as Caledonia as it was no longer part of the Roman province. Not really relevant to the thread, I'm afraid, but you did ask!
     
  19. b ross

    b ross Member

    Actually John, we want our cake and we want it deep fried.
     
  20. 2nd tenor

    2nd tenor Active Member

    In a way there is a similarity to the Irish situation here. Could and if so do bands from Eire compete?

    Anyway let's hope they decide to stay, better together.
     
  21. Alyn James

    Alyn James Member

    South Africa's not the only "rainbow nation" - the UK would be a lot less colourful without Scotland and I hope they stay. But if they do decide to go, maybe they should be prepared to travel light.......(?)
     
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