Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by Band Lads Army, Oct 24, 2006.

  1. Has anyone got this "Live In Milwall" as first listed. What do you think?

    I wasn't quite sure what I was receiving , but feel a little disappointed that I've bought a cd for the same price as every other , and it's done by a company in cornwall and from looking at it it resembles a more home made cd. It's on a Verbatim CDR complete with blue side , I didn't quite expect? The sound record quality isn't as good as B&h ones. Sorry but I would have expected this a bit cheaper.

    Sorry , but I felt I had to address this , because i'm sure others would have done.

    I've spent hundreds with Wob and will continue to do so , but I'm just a little disappointed.
  2. brasscrest

    brasscrest Active Member

    That is disappointing. Actually, somewhat disturbing. I certainly wouldn't want to pay a full price for a CD that looks like someone burned it on their home PC.
  3. AndyFlugel

    AndyFlugel New Member

    Where did you buy this CD from?
  4. Active Member

    This CD was recorded by PM Sound. We have puurchased stock from them and it is selling really well. The CD is a live recording of a concert that the band gave in May at the Hall for Cornwall.

    I am surprised that you think the sound quality isn't as good as a B&H one because the ISB members I have spoken to about it think it is better!
    I would say that it is just 'different'. I've not been to the Hall for Cornwall so don't know how it compares to the usual ISB recording venue (Henry Wood Hall) but don't forget that Live in Cornwall is just that, a live recording, and I for one think it is an excellent product.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2006
  5. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    Although I agree with you to a point, Robert, you'll probably find that the CDs were probably still duplicated by a CD manufacturing company. The fact that the disc is on CDR implies to me that the run was less than 250 to 300 CDs - which I find a little surprising for an ISB recording. Plants won't press less than 500 units, but the cost of pressing those 500 is more or less equivalent to having 250-300 burnt onto CDR with the same artwork specification.

    As to the sound quality, this is pretty much an entirely subjective thing. As Carl has already said, I'd expect it to be different than a studio CD. The main reason it's likely to be perceived as different is because you're comparing it to a range of other material that has been recorded in pretty much exactly the same way and it's what you're used to listening to.

    All sorts of factors influence the 'sound quality' - the venue, where you put the mics (or in some some circumstances where you're allowed to put the mics), what mics they are, what you record them to, the opinion of the Producer and (to an extent) of the Balance Engineer....there are a lot of variables. PM Sound have recorded some very good CDs, different sounding may be...
  6. A good quality CDR would have been better though , Verbatim are poundland jobs :).
  7. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    Not necessarily ;)

    What you're really looking for is a disc that gives the lowest error rates along with the widest compatibility of the dye type with home CD players. Along with Taiyo Yuden some of the Verbatim discs meet that's all dependent on what type of disc it is.
  8. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    - and also a disc type that will withstand the normal tolerance level for handling (e.g., heat, scratches, fingerprints etc.) ;)
  9. brasscrest

    brasscrest Active Member

    Good points, Keith. I'm actually more disturbed by the marketing aspect than any of the technical aspects. Regardless of the sound quality and technical differences between a live recording and a fully engineered studio recording, the fact that the product looks less than professionally produced, without explanation by the seller, makes it bit hard to swallow when the price is the same as that charged for other recordings.
  10. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    To be fair I've not seen or heard it...

    My personal view is that small runs should be accommodated on the CDR basis - or else some smaller clients may be put off by the numbers or by the licence fees that go with them. That said, it's perfectly possible to print thermally on CDRs and get your artwork delivered in a similar fashion to how it would be as part of a pressed run if you use the right manufacturers. For instance, the paper parts on a 500 CD run using my (usual) suppliers amounts to less than £50...OK, the price per unit goes up for lower volumes...

    Sorry, I might have forced this thread a little off topic....feel free to tell me to stop :D
  11. brasscrest

    brasscrest Active Member

    I think you're OK on topic, Keith.

    My issue here isn't the small run, nor the fact that CDRs were used. They might be the appropriate medium in this example. However, when they are sold at retail (which is how I would define an operation like WoB), I would expect some sort of standard in terms of presentation, if the seller is to price them the same as "normally" produced recordings. In retail situations, appearances do count. WoB did not produce these recordings, they purchased them from a third party. So they aren't in control of the quality of the recording, both in terms of the sound and the physical presentation. But they are in control of the price that they charge for the recording at retail. I have no issue with this recording being sold as it is - I simply question the pricing decision that led to them being priced the same as other, more attractively presented recordings.
  12. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    In which case, I'll shut up ;)
  13. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    Bah - just typed a big edit and it timed out :-?

    I've decided to pose another question.

    Take WoB out of the equation and consider a Band that doesn't have the potential of their distribution.

    The cost of recording them is the same regardless of how many units they're producing (or at least it is with me ;) ). They then have to make a judgement on how many copies they think they'll sell and translate that into a manufactured and licenced number. They then have to decide on their pricing strategy - if they have under 500 units made, they have to have them done by CDR (I've only ever come across one exception to this, so I'll take it as general).

    Can they sell them (via their own website / concerts / word of mouth) for the same as other bands at £10-12.95 + p&p?

    This is a genuine question as to whether people think that Bands in that position should be charging less ...

    [There's a caveat to this. If you choose a programme that falls within the scope of the Limited Availability Licence (LAL) from the MCPS (in the UK of course), then such a licence will currently cost a maximum of £70.50 flat rate for 500 units. The difference in cost between this and the standard AP2 agreement more or less pays for the difference between 300 CDRs and 500 pressed units. If you think you'll never sell more than the 500 units the LAL option would seem to be the way to go, as you'd be guaranteed the 'quality' of artwork and CD printing that goes with the pressed CDs. The only thing is that the LAL doesn't allow for repress so you can only apply once, and for a maximum of 500.]
  14. Active Member

    so have you seen a copy then?
  15. John Brooks

    John Brooks Well-Known Member

    Question for those who have seen the product: How would you compare the packaging to Obrasso, who traditionally turnout less than stellar inserts (and at full price)?
  16. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    It all depends on what your gripe is with Obrasso - regardless of design, their paper parts are still printed in a traditional manner I guess rather that for example ink jet printers 'at home'.

    If it's the design you're talking about I'd have to refer you back to budgets again...complicated artwork can cost a lot of money interms of commissioning the terms of actual printing costs for the paper parts the difference between 4-sided [4+1] booklets and 8-sided [4+1] is about 2p per unit so it's relatively negligible.
  17. John Brooks

    John Brooks Well-Known Member

    I personally have the same gripe with Obrasso as so many others (4BarsRest; Chris Thomas et al), no information on the music.

    However, I haven't yet seen the new ISB product and so was just asking for those who have to attempt a comparison. I picked Obrasso as a bench mark because so much has been written about their inserts.
  18. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    Fair enough ;)

    Obrasso products in general, though, are almost designed as showreels for their publications. Personally I wouldn't expect an encyclopedia for a booklet in them whereas I might expect more from a CD that's a vehicle for a Band or a specific live concert recording.
  19. Gitarisuto

    Gitarisuto New Member

    Having listened to this recording I'd be interested to know which ISB members thought it was better? Putting aside the fact that the aesthetics of the CD look like it's a cheap copy from a market, the sound quality is actually exceptionally poor. I know it's live but that doesn't mean you skip the post-production stage altogether! Sounds like the only mics used were placed inside the worlds largest bass drum. The incessant low rumble is unbelievable and I am rather disappointed that this recording is selling at the same price as any other of the excellent ISB recordings. Having listened to it I wouldn't take one if it was offered as a free gift. Unless of course I was a fan of bass drum with occasional brass band accompaniment.
  20. Jonesy

    Jonesy Member

    I think you may have identified an exciting new niche market!

    Seriously though, I agree with you, it's a poor product all in all.