New 4BR/ BB World Rankings

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by DublinBass, Jan 8, 2005.

  1. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    4BR and the BB have released a new, revised, top 200 world rankings.

    One of the claims of the new poll is...
    Well, lets see how it did?

    Old poll - band - new poll (# of spots moved up the poll)
    #18 - Willebroek - now #16 (+2)
    #41 - Lyngby Taarbaek - now #35 (+6)
    #42 - Eikanger Bjorsvik - now #38 (+4)
    #46 - Stavanger Norway - #41 (+5)
    #47 - Treize Etoiles - now #43 (+4)
    #58 - Bazuin-Oenkerk - now #55 (+3)
    #59 - Burgermusik Luzern - now #56 (+3)
    #62 - Brass Band Fribourg - now #57 (+5)
    #64 - Gothenburg - now #59 (+5)
    #67 - Brass Band De Waldsang - now #61 (+6)
    #68 - Provinciale Brassband Groningen - #68 (=)
    #71 - Buizingen - now #67 (+4)
    #84 - BB Berneroberland - now #77 (+7)
    #88 - 1st Old Boys Seacat Silver - now #83 (+5)
    #91 - Midden Brabant - now #79 (+12)
    #94 - Laganvale - now #88 (+6)
    Average European Band (+5)

    #29 - Dalewool Auckland Brass - now #54 (-25)
    #79 - NZ Community Trust Woolston Brass - now #89 (-10)
    #85 - Brass Band of Central Florida - now #84 (+1)
    #93 - Illinois Brass Band - now #161 (-68 )
    #96 - Waratah Brass Australia - now #90 (+6)
    #97 - Waitakere City Trusts Brass (NZ) - now #97 (=)
    Average non-European Band (-16 ) (even w/o IBB -6)

    Conclusion: I think the poll may give the top European bands a better chance of trying to move up the rankings, but for overseas bands (I mean truly overseas)...thanks for playing.
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2005
  2. Roger Thorne

    Roger Thorne Active Member

    Its interesting to read 4BR opening lines on these rankings:

    78 - Point of Ayr !

    Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't Point of Ayr disband a couple of years ago.

    And while we're on the subject on BB could someone confirm whether John Maines is still on the team - since the 'take-over' Kenny Crookston seems to be the only person writing the reviews!

  3. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    I looked through the 4BR Results Archives and I can't seem to find them since the 2001 Welsh areas and 2001 Championships at RAH :-?
  4. dyl

    dyl Active Member

    That'll be correct then.
  5. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    I guess that would be 4barsrests "point of Error" ;)
  6. HBB

    HBB Active Member

    *Groan * Groan *
  7. Aidan

    Aidan Active Member

    are they still registered as a band with the registry tho??
    if they are still officially, then i suppose they must be included.
  8. lottie4744

    lottie4744 Member

    but if you don't compete then how do they get points to stay in the world rankings! :-?
  9. sparkling_quavers

    sparkling_quavers Active Member

    they could have got enough points a few years ago to keep them in the top 200, then as nadia says...if they are still registered, they are still in theory a band.

    I would like to see publically how they work their figures out though. I am sure it would be an interesting read! I am still pretty baffled by some of the bands that make that into the bottom 50 or so. Not meaning that to an insult to any bands in there I cam just think of many bands with equal or better contest records that haven't made it onto the score yet. It would be interesting to see which contests they take into account and their points system.
  10. impycornet

    impycornet Member

  11. Jan H

    Jan H Moderator Staff Member

    Midden Brabant hasn't rehe***** in almost a year, are without a conductor and most members have joined other bands. And still they manage to climb 12 places in the ranking :shock:

  12. lottie4744

    lottie4744 Member

    I think the "rankings" were just get the top 10 right and then random band selector for the rest!
  13. Aidan

    Aidan Active Member

    to be fair tho, there's always going to be a lot more movement lower down than in the top10.. because the lower bands are so much closer together on points. Whereas the top 10 bands are always playing against the top10 bands and so winning those competitions obviously has a much higher points value than winning a competition full of 150-200 placed bands (no disrespect to any of those placed bands of course!)
  14. Roger Thorne

    Roger Thorne Active Member

    Bit like a Band Contest then!

  15. Robb

    Robb New Member

    I think the rankings use a system which awards points for placing at a contest, and then steadily degrades that score through time. Hence a band that hasn't contested for a couple of years may still have some residual points from previous contests that are yet to disappear completely.

    I seem to remember seeing that the 4br rankings were based on a formula used for professional golf rankings. I don't follow pro golf, but I do know that the PWC ratings used for international cricket use a system which does mean that retired players stay in the rankings until their points have all gone. So maybe that's what's happened?

    As far as bands rising in the rankings despite not contesting are concerned, I suppose the original post illustrates the answer - the new system has given greater weighting to Euro/UK results. Mind you - it shouldn't be that big a job to sweep the list for defunct bands and erase them.

    Of course the major caveat to the whole issue is that surely these rankings are just an entertaining diversion - yet it appears that they are about to begin to affect invitations to a major new contest.
  16. Jan H

    Jan H Moderator Staff Member

    Of course, I knew that. I just thought it was a bit funny that Midden Brabant Climbed 12 places.
    Maybe the system should be adapted so that bands that have ceized to exist, should be removed from the ranking? Surely, a band that doesn't exist any more can't be the 79th best band of the world...
  17. Statto

    Statto Member

    A quick scan of some of these continental placings highlights THE major flaw in the 4BR/BB version of the rankings in that a system cannot truly reflect the relative merits of bands if bands don't compete regularly against others in the ranking. No sane band enthusiast could conceivably rank Eikanger and Stavanger outside the top-40 of world bands but this is simply a function of them not having had the opportunity to prove themselves against higher ranked bands on a regular basis. An occasional appearance in the European Championship is not enough to gauge their form on a week-to-week basis!

    Someone has commented that the rankings are based on the well-established golf rankings but the 4BR site states that this is actually the system used for another rankings (BBW magazine). The golf rankings were heavily criticised in the early years as not being truly reflective of form and containing a bias towards US golfers. The cause of this was obvious - golfers, especially US golfers, didn't compete outside their own tours often enough and hence anomalies similar to those in the 4BR/BB rankings existed. It's no coincidence that since the advent of the world championship events in golf - giving the top-50 players in the world at least 7 annual events in which they all compete - the golf rankings have gained much greater universal appeal.

    Unless we ever get to the situation where UK bands compete overseas on a regular basis, and vice-versa, it is perhaps best to stick to national rankings within each banding country.
  18. Mrs Fruity

    Mrs Fruity Member

    They must've regraded all contests retrospectively, as everyone else seems to have moved up (or am I just imagining it?) and we seem to be the only one in the top 10 who've moved down... (perhaps it was all a dream????)
  19. Mrs Fruity

    Mrs Fruity Member

    Just getting my facts right... Tredegar (previously 9th) have moved down 2 places and we've moved down 4.
  20. tromdude

    tromdude New Member

    The 4BR/BB rankings are pants because the number of points you have is proportional to the number of contests you do. What sense is there in that? Stavanger could win the European every year and still not make it anywhere near the top 10. This is not only a great shame for foreign bands, but shows a huge irrecoverable flaw in the entire ranking of every band.

    Imagine if Manchester United won the league by playing a couple more matches than everyone else to secure some extra points! It would be fairer to divide all the points by the number of games played, to get an average. This is how the golf rankings system solves the problem, and also how BBW do it. 4BR are up the spout on this one.

    It beggars belief that a contest has used these rankings to choose bands. Does anyone know which contest?

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