National Finals Contest Rules?

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by SteveT, Sep 28, 2011.

  1. SteveT

    SteveT Member

    Could someone please help me with clarifying something?

    Is it acceptable under the National rules for a brass player to play two instruments during a contest. Let me specific, is it allowed for the Flugel Horn player to pick up a cornet, play a solo and them go back to his Flugel?

    Many thanks.
  2. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    The online copy of the rules says:

    Seems quite clear to me - no, you can't do this, if these rules are the ones that the contest is run under (and I can't immediately see why they wouldn't be). That is, unless the specific exception holds that the score requests the player to do this.

    However - some regions vary - a few years ago at Stevenage, on 'Whitsun Wakes', we had one of our front row pick up a sop to put in the sop cadenza. Cue outraged protests from other competitors, but we had checked out the rule book in advance, and you can do this in L&SC (or at least, you could in 2002).
  3. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    No, that would not be acceptable at any Regional contest, the National finals or any other contests that run under the National rules.
    The only exception would be if the score/part is specifically marked for a 2nd instrument - Moomin's example would not be allowed now!
  4. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Useful to know, thanks!
  5. Ali

    Ali Member

    Dances and arias requires the rep player to play a flugal duet. If the piece specifically requires another player to play 2 instruments then there is no breaking of the rules. However, Im sure Ive seen it before where it states that there is an official line up of what is allowed on stage (unless you are lets say a cornet short and so you play an extra bass) and that players only allowed to play one instrument each.
  6. WoodenFlugel

    WoodenFlugel Moderator Staff Member

    IIRC the ruling is clear that a brass player can't play any other brass instrument during the performance unless the score requires it, and the wording is pretty unambiguous. But because it states specifically 'brass' instrument it does allow a brass player to play a percussion instrument as well as their own, but for some reason a percussionist can't do the opposite and play a brass instrument (not that anyone in their right mind would trust a percussionist with a brass instrument ;)).

    But in the instance quoted in the OP - no its not OK.
  7. JR

    JR Member

    not allowed...

    So does th esame composer's Rococo directed by the score

    But you cannot play more than one brass instrument if not directed to do so

    You can however pretend to be another instrument altogether - but thats another story...

    John R
  8. fatcontroler

    fatcontroler Member

    How about if an instrument was to break during a performance?

    I know of one contest where Principle cornet had trouble with valves just before a solo, and commandeered the cornet of the 2nd man down.:clap:
  9. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    We nearly had that with euphoniums a while back too - slightly stressful for the players concerned!
    Its not the same issue though, because its swapping like for like in extenuating circumstances.
  10. SteveT

    SteveT Member

    Oh dear.... Cat Pigeons scenario in that case.... Flugel Player putting instrument down and picking up cornet to play solo in Paganini Variations at the Area.... What to do ???
  11. tubafran

    tubafran Active Member

    Isn't that because there is a defined number of brass players but the number of perc/kit is "as required"? If a perc player was playing a brass instrument that would count as one of you allowed brass player numbers
  12. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Bit late now, innit? Would definitely look like sour grapes to complain, no matter how in the right you are. You would have thought that the contest organisers ought to have spotted so blatant an infringement of their rules at the time!

    I'd personally send the band concerned a friendly letter letting them know that they were spotted, but that you don't propose to do anything about it as so much time has gone by since. Did the band concerned qualify?

    Mind you, if having them disqualified would save another band that you like from relegation, it could be seriously tempting to incur the bad karma for it... But those kinds of motives go down really really badly with the band in question - there was a situation in L&SC a number of years ago where a band was disqualified on a small (and ultimately unimportant) registration error, and fingers were pointed (unfairly and inaccurately) within that band at members of another local band, leading to some ill-considered internet outbursts and a lot of mutual bad feeling that persisted for a surprisingly long time, to the clear general detriment of banding in that part of the area.
  13. tubafran

    tubafran Active Member

    Yep - any alleged breaches of the National rules are required to be lodged within 14 days of the contest.
  14. SteveT

    SteveT Member

    I'll keep my own councel methinks!
  15. Ipswich trom

    Ipswich trom Member

    yes, but I have a hunch that the incident which triggered this e mail happened last weekend in Chetenham and was even mentioned on the 4 Bars rest live comments!
  16. SteveT

    SteveT Member

    Not wishing to contradict you Ian, but it was at the Qualifiers earlier this year...
  17. JR

    JR Member

    a complaint has to be made at the time....

    If it's against the rules you have to make the complaint at the time - there is a precedent for this going back about 20 yrs ago at the Yorks Area.

    The test piece was as I remember an obscure one called "Masque"

    One of the bands played an E flat trumpet instead of a Sop - a complaint was made and the offending band was placed last. Interestingly had no complaint been lodged I believe the band would have quaified for the finals.

    John R
  18. Why does it matter? If the person who swapped instruments did a good job of it he should be applauded - surely it's about the band not the individual player? If it is in the rule book that this isn't allowed what on earth is this world coming to. I do hate contesting politics sometimes!
    After hearing that a band was placed last because of a different type of Eb Cornet/Trumpet incident I honestly feel sorry for them, this is completely wrong.
  19. tubafran

    tubafran Active Member

    Where would we be if we didn't have rules? FRANCE

    But to be serious the rules were published and available before the contest.
  20. SteveT

    SteveT Member

    With respect, you miss the point. ... This isn't about politics, it's about a band breaking rules that others have adhered to. Also, the band representative will have signed an entry form that agrees to abide by said rules. The rules are normally there to protect the interests of lesser bands. If they are ignored, then you take the risk of being disqualified!

    Lets 'say' that the band who flouted this rule gained an advantage and managed to obtain a higher placing by doing so. As a result another band gets relegated due to there being one point difference between survival in the Championship Section and relegation to the 1st section. The relegation of this 'said' band 'could' have a devastating effect on its progress and recruitment ability.

    However, lets deal with the facts.

    As far as I can tell no band was disadvantaged because of the success of the band that had the instrument swapping incident. The margins for relegated bands were significantly wider than merely one point. If the said band had been dissqualified, the same two bands would have been relegated. So, although the band broke the rules, no real advantage was gained. However, theoretically, this could happen! The band in question (in my view) gained very little advantage in taking this risk, it made no real difference to their overall performance.

    Also, In my view, there's a big difference between theory and fact and rules should be enforced intelligently and with the application of wisdom and experience. Some rules are really nonsense. For example, the inability in some areas to take some of your own percussion instruments on stage, (the ones that your percussionists are used to playing). I don't think organisers understand what a difference this can make to percussionists! (I know about the time arguement, often talked of, very rarely abused!)

    Anyway, the whole reason I asked the question was to see if anyone else observed what happened. I and those around me certainly did.

    It is not the audience's job to enforce rules normally, but the organising party, who are normally some of the regional officials on stage.

    Anyway... Interesting stuff.
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2011