National Championships for Wales and Scotland

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by Captain Cymru, Jul 3, 2007.

  1. Captain Cymru

    Captain Cymru Member

    Why is is that the British Brass Band Federation organises the English National Championships, but they do not organise a Welsh or Scottish Championships? In the interest of Fair and unbias working practices, don't you think this should be the case? I may be wrong but I would appreiciate any comments on this subject. We in Wales only have the Regional qualifiers every year for European Qualification, Maybe the BBFB should be looking to organise a Welsh and Scottish Champs to show that they are not bias to England! After all they are a British Federation?
  2. Darth_Tuba

    Darth_Tuba Active Member

    Erm... the Scottish Championships have been around longer than the area I think you'll find? Just happens to be the same event, but it was the Scottish Championships first as far as I know.
  3. Captain Cymru

    Captain Cymru Member

    I am only raising a point. I am mainly coming from a Welsh point of view, but I welcome any comments from out Celtic Cousins in the North. You obviously have all the facts at your finger tips, but do you not think it is fair that other British Isles Countries Championships are swallowed up into the Areas?
  4. brasscrest

    brasscrest Active Member

    All - I've moved this thread to the appropriate forum, and renamed it. Feel free to continue with your discussion - the Captain raises what could be an interesting question.

  5. Jan H

    Jan H Moderator Staff Member

    Wales and Scotland are representend in the EBBA through a Welsh organisation and through the SBBA. These organisations decide how they select the Welsh and Scottish representatives for the EBBC (just like VLAMO selects the Belgian representative, the KNFM the Dutch and so on).

    England is represented through the BFBB, so the BFBB decides how the English band is selected.
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2007
  6. Captain Cymru

    Captain Cymru Member

    I was just asking the Question of whether each country should have same qualification criteria? It would be the easiest and the most fair wat don't you think? For instance, the Welsh area is Adjudicated by one Person, Areas around the rest of the British Isles are judged by Two. The English Nationals are Judged by three, so is it fair that a single Persons Adjudication can Qualify a Band for not only the Nationals of GB, But the Europeans too?
  7. johnmartin

    johnmartin Active Member

    Well, in Scotland we do. The winners of the Scottish Championships are put forward as our representatives at the subsequent European Championship contest, just as the winners of the English Championship are the English representatives. As for having separate areas and Scottish/Welsh Championship contests well where in an already packed calendar would you propose having them.

    Although the BFBB is called the British Federation I'm afraid it has no jurisdiction as far as contesting goes within Scotland. As Darth Tuba says the Scottish Championships and indeed the Scottish Brass Band Association has been around for well over a hundred years.
  8. Owen S

    Owen S Member

    No, that isn't actually true. It was left up to the individual area committees whether they use two adjudicators rather than one for the areas. Some of the English areas have now swapped to using two, but most, including London and Southern Counties, still use one, just like Wales.

    It is up to Welsh bands to lobby the area committee if you want two adjudicators at the area. That can easily be done through the current system rather than starting a whole new contest.
  9. Captain Cymru

    Captain Cymru Member

    If people are not interested in having a Welsh National Championships with the Schedule already packed. Then it is our duty for every Welsh band to seek a fair adjudication system as most of the other area's have. With the amount of hours practice that bands put in for such a contest, the organisers owe it to the Bandsmen and women to deliver a fair and just system for judging which is equal to all equivilent contest's throught the Country.
  10. Owen S

    Owen S Member

    Having two adjudicators at the areas is not a "national issue for Wales", honest. It is up to the area committee, and up to the area's bands.

    How do you propose to pay for the extra adjudicators?
  11. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Well-Known Member

    I may be out of date here, but I was under the impression that the Welsh representative at the Euros is not the Welsh Area winner, but the Champion Band of Wales, which I think is decided over 4 contests?

    Happy to be corrected!
  12. IanHeard

    IanHeard Member

    I think it was the Scottish National (wrongly in my view) closely followed by Yorkshire which "broke ranks" and opted for two judges and subsequently some regions have followed suit and some have`nt.
    I feel that to avoid situations like this where some (the welsh in this case) now feel there are percieved inequalities in the qualifying process, we need to standardise the rules in every area/regional contest and remind the "rogue" areas that this is a British Contest and in the interests of bandings most important contest we are all singing off the same hymn sheet!

    As regards the BFBB,I think it would save any confusion if they dropped the word British and perhaps became the English Federation of Brass Bands or the Brass Band Federation of England & Wales.
    The Scots are patently happy to be isolationist and the idea of a single British body to run banding is something they could not countenance at this point.
  13. dyl

    dyl Active Member

    My pleasure! ;) It's definitely the winner at the Regional - which imo is totally fair - as it is that contest which gives the winners the title of 'Welsh Champions' - and is the only contest currently in Wales to feature bands from all over the country regularly.
  14. Kilted-Cornet

    Kilted-Cornet New Member

    are you for real? "broke ranks", "rogue areas", "isolationist"?? sounds like a news report from the middle east, not a comment on a forum about our HOBBY. i can see no benefit for scottish banding in dropping the SBBA who seem to be more forward looking and better organised than the BFBB. maybe the SBBA should be "single British body" ;)
  15. ronnie_the_lizard

    ronnie_the_lizard Active Member

    That would just complicate things when full devolution occurs, soon after the next general election...... ;)
  16. marc71178

    marc71178 Member

    Except for those from the North who can't afford to attend.

  17. ronnie_the_lizard

    ronnie_the_lizard Active Member


    The Welsh 'Champion Band' is only realistically a spot reachable by a very small number (4-5 at most) of bands.

    In the last 20 years the only North Wales contenders have been the late (and personally very much lamented) Point of Ayr, and possibly Northop and Beaumaris.

    If a band is that tight on funds that they can't afford to attend the area, they certainly don't need to be qualifying for the European (and the 'PoA' and 'Beau' situations just underline this).

    As you may be aware (see various other threads regarding N-S problems in Wales) I am very much a supporter of increased rights for my native North-Wales (N-W) bands within the area, but compared to previous systems (4x S-W contests for Champ Bnd o Wales; N-W bands in the NWest area so not counted as Welsh at all; N-W Area separate from S-W) the current Area system works better than most (albeit with the location of the area contest being in justifiable debate).

    Last edited: Jul 3, 2007
  18. Captain Cymru

    Captain Cymru Member

    I started this Thread inthe interest of fairness, All I ask is that we have a FAIR and BALANCED system that is the same for all. I have no problem with the Area being the Welsh Championships, I do however have a problem with one person judging for such an importamt event. I was assumming that all Welsh Bands persons would welcome the chance to get together twice a year to do battle. Wales has some fantastic Concerts halls now, and a separate Welsh Championship to the Area could then alternate to different venues around the country? Surely this would be fair to all that take part in the Movenment in Wales?
  19. johnmartin

    johnmartin Active Member

    We in Scotland have been discussing and debating the same things for years. It all comes back to two questions; WHEN and HOW MUCH. The where pretty much sorts itself out because we also have some good concert halls up here.
  20. TopTrump

    TopTrump Member

    If a 'Welsh Championship' contest were to be set up, you can bet your bottom dollar that the results would be a carbon copy of the Area Championship section anyway. In effect, the Welsh Championship Regional is indeed the 'Welsh Championship' which is being proposed. As for Scotland, I suspect that things would be similar there.

    Perhaps a "Celtic Masters" contest would be a good idea in its own right though and a bit of an event for Welsh, Scottish, Irish, and Cornish bands!!!