Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by tubafran, Dec 7, 2012.
Giving up arguing with an obnoxious troll is not the same as being shot down.
And we completely agree. This is the bottom line. In, what? 5? 6? different threads? hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of posts, countless accusations.. there isn't a single irrefutable fact brought to the stream of accusations. None of the accusations have been shown to be founded (where there IS proof it's discounted what has been said, eg the date of registration BBP ltd - where they tried it TWICE!). No one wants to actually go find the facts, they'd rather keep spouting accusations against individuals on here. Matt apparently has spoken to everyone but refuses to divulge what he's found out. Boourns just wants to run polls that will achieve nothing, and smarts against people suggesting better ways to find out. Mr Ashworth and Mr Lyons are just angry with the world and don't care who they bring down. Ian Heard actually does have his own strong principles (I don't agree with them, but at least he's consistent, although I wish he's stop taking swipes at individuals to do this). There is nothing but hot air. no one has found out anything, no one has even genuinely tried to, apart from relying on bluster on here. This is the point. Have whatever view or opinion you want, but stop denigrating people individually with constant unverified accusation. As I've always said, stop griping, start doing. If it's frustrating that the majority of bands don't want to discuss it, then you have to live with that. That is reality. As much as I respect the people who run this forum, and I hate call for shutting debate down, The mouthpiece really needs to consider asking people to put up or shut up with some facts and verified information, or stop this stream of accusations right here.
If you're talking about me, then that's fine. No problem with obnoxious But I wasn't talking about me.. which 'trolls' are you on about?....
Sonorous, I never once said the Regional Committees/representatives didn't care, please re read my post! I have not and never will insult anybody on this forum. I questioned whether bands had been fully represented in recent decisions made NOT that organisers didn't care!
I'd like to make a suggestion that i believe should help this forum get back on track and stop it being devalued by some parties.
if sonorous posts a logical and reasonable question/comment we should accept it and continue the thread. If he/she posts something silly, unreasonable, or mocking, we should all ignore it. this will hopefully 'self police' sonorous or this thread to be the positive useful tool it is.
I have allowed myself to be drawn in the past, but if we all take this positive action it should keep everyone in the club and the club positive.
Hope you all agree
Now there is something I agree with, but it has to be all inclusive, and not for some posters to take a moral high ground, for which there appears to be no facts or verified information.
But when someone attempts to establish the facts, your only goal is to derail the thread. Where does this get any of us in this sorry mess. You have given your opinion on so many occassions, and as I have previously stated, more often that not you try do a subtle u-turn, without actually admitting that you could possibly be wrong.
As you say, time to put up, or shut up. The regional committee has stated the position as it views and is not allowing any variation. The only way to influence this is to vote out the committee at the next AGM, but with all the sterling work that they have done since I have been in banding, I would not be one to vote them out anyway. Please would you give me the benefit of you experience, and advise how this could be resolved. Fact or verfication are not required, just an opinion.
Rather than quote the whole of the post, I have taken a leaf out of your book, and only replied to the part that I want to.
fair comment blaster. And i did make pains earlier that the 'you' was a general you, not aimed at you specifically. Just trying to point out why i don't think these actions are as defencable as you may believe.
But happy new year to you.
Completely fair point. To be honest I'm only making a pain of myself as it appears that there are a whole host of unsubstantiated accusations that aren't being challenged (Mainly because a lot of people are steering well clear of the threads and the subject - understandably). I am aware that I'm a pain on this subject, but there is a genuine reason of concern why I'm being like this.
For the main part of the threads I haven't been trying to derail at all, just trying to get people to substantiate their accusations. I haven't seen a single constructive attempt to establish the facts. The poll on who was 'consulted' is understandably flawed. I've no problem with this being attempted, but people need to be very very clear of the limitations. And as Jim has pointed out there are more constructive ways of trying to get the facts (or to prove a point). Later in the threads as the accusations have just kept coming round in circles with still no verification of them I have started to be more derailing, and I've admitted to this.
Well said, and impossible to answer. My personal view is that this has potentially given me MORE confidence that they are the people for the jobs. They have gone through very tough times, they've stuck to they're convictions despite criticism. Personally, I believe opening out any further band consultation would have just extended the pain and confusion 10 fold. And I'm guessing they think the same. But that's just me.
PS I have no problem at all with matt's comment regarding ignoring my more obnoxious posts. I'm fully aware of just how obnoxious I can come across as. I wish more of the people fighting this corner were more open and constructive in their debate as you are (laser). Despite me having strong views on things like this, I genuinely never mean to derail an opinion in itself (which is why I avoid most threads on here).
Now I hope that we can be constructive rather the situation we have been experiencing recently. You stated that I have spoken to many people but have not made these conversations public, insinuating that they had not occurred. There is a reason for that. People have told me very personal opinions, opinions that if posted on here have the potential to setup a few of your opinions and the wider banding world. But I have been told these opinions in confidence and I have honoured the confidence put in me. I would never be trusted again if I gave away individuals guarded opinions so freely and publically. Believe me I have been sorely tempted to put some those expressions on here, but that would, as i say, not be the honourable thing to do even though it would have helped my position.
I did at the time suggest you should speak to those people in person and they will most likely I hope tell you what they have told me. I would suggest that again.
Please do not fall back into the obnoxious posts, I have openly stated that I have posted questionably worded comments on here and I'm making a concerned effort not to fall into that trap again. Lets be constructive and if we disagree, we disagree. But being obnoxious to prove a point helps no one.
Happy New Year to all. Have a great one!
Sorry, been out for NYE. Being asked to butt out by a Mod, and then being told to not contribute anymore obviously doesn't count.
Yet you still provide an answer!
Hmmm, defending your own posts again. I am not trying to be constructive in the debate, but am merely trying to get to the bottom of why you think that the majority, where the vote is still out, are on your side, without any thought to any counter arguments.
I must once again point out that I take no sides in this particular argument, but offer the view of the partisan. This concept may be alien to you, but in this instance I cannot comment further without the say so of my executive committee!
You must have had too much to drink last night, LBB (plebs to note correct abbreviation of name - use of the word "laser" is considered almost Luddockian and a real insult of weighty proportions), as we had an executive meeting of the clan last night, and you were voted in as policy lead and spokesman for the 17th year running.
The only point to be answered is the last one about personal belief. That is mine. It may not be yours. None if us know what the main chunk of bands think about this, despite constant calls to join the fight against the evil oppressed, most bands have signed up (at least the numbers indicate this) and they are keeping very quiet about their opinions. I am on here arguing against a handful of people who are arguing against how most bands appear to have decided (whether out of preference, apathy, or feeling there is no other choice). My personal experience of those bands i have been around is that none really care that much about it, its just a registry.
but regardless of this, the handful of people on here have decided that it needed a full band vote, kapitol are liars and out to destroy brass bands for their own good, and that anyone who doesn't agree is a liar, sell out and doesn't care about brass bands. That is the basic crux of why i don't like the personal nature of this 'campaign'. Of course i don't know for certain, but nor do you. And we should never be allowing personal attacks on people (mr Morris included) just because we don't agree with them. That's it.
How dare you say this about me, who are you to make such an accusation when you do not even know me?
My initial proposal to Robert Morgan, Chairman of BBE, was to introduce a discussion paper on the state of the BBB Registry and the introduction of a new English Championship, not to destroy the movement. I have worked inside the Brass Band Movement since joining it over 55 years ago, what have you done?
At least you know who I am, I gladly place my name after ever insertion. The question is who are you?
There are a considerable amount of people who would like to know I think.
Your valid points are hidden in an absurd rhetoric with no other purpose than to irritate people, and maintain the illusion of a reasonable argument. Why hide your identity?
I thought you were the one pushing for people to use facts? How does 30 sign ups indicate most bands?
Just going on the indication that the areas are happy with the take up rate for the 2013 contest. And that we're looking, at least, at a majority of bands taking part. As I said it is merely an indication, but it appears to be a fairly robust one.
The English Regional commitees are stuck between a rock and a hard place, an instrinsically powerless relationship with Kapitol, and their responsibility to a movement that is beginning to realise (even if they themselves refuse to see it) that the status quo as regards English banding makes our future a tad bleak.
This whole dispute is a symptom of England`s lack of national body in my view, the only positive for me in all this, is that the much needed national body has never been closer.
There is a huge difference between style of language used, actual language used. I think that you have taken passionate statements and indicated that they are angry. Your sole purpose in this case appears to be bait the only person in this whole mess that is willing to stand up and be counted. TBH, I don't actually care who you are.
If I didn't think it would be taken down within a few seconds of being put up, and potentially be deemed cyber bullying, I would create a poll asking the question, Is Sonorous' opinion to be taken seriously Y or N?. The very little kudos you had a few months ago, has been akin to Morendo.
The New English Championship is a fledgling idea, that Mr Ashworth has obviously taken time to consider, prepare and evolve to a state where it could be presented to the overall body, yet all you can do is make fleeting comments about the style of language used. If you do not have anything constructive to add to this conversation, then go and find another to take a snipe at. The Brass Band Dictionary is a good one http://www.themouthpiece.com/vb/showthread.php?47734-The-Brass-Band-Dictionary It is full of the stuff that your dreams are made of. Falsehoods and downright lying, which would keep you entertained for about three years with all of the things that are wrong.
Separate names with a comma.