Kapitol Rules

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by BASEMANIAN, Feb 11, 2015.



    I know I'm opening a can of worms here but what the hell.
    I appreciate contesting is only a small part of what we do as brass bands and more important to some than others ,but you can not get away from the fact that it is getting increasingly difficult for bands to turn out 25 brass players plus 3 or more percussionists . So my question is . Who would support a rule change which would allow bands to "borrow" 1 or 2 players from bands registered in a lower section for national contests . I understand that the objection to this has been the risk of bands bringing in ringers ,but this could be managed by having any "deps" approved by your respective contest controller & Registry and also by imposing penalties on bands and players who break the rules.
    I appreciate this is a major contest but so is the British Open and Spring Festival,both of which offer the facility to borrow players from outside of bands competing in the same section .
    I don't claim to have the answer for the shortage of players but surely this would help the hundreds of dedicated members who spend countless hours trying to fill their band for 1 performance.
  2. owain_s

    owain_s Member

    No they don't. They operate a separate registry, so it's possible for players to be registered with a different band than their BBP registration, but there's no permission for borrowing.
  3. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    The Nationals (regionals and finals) are owned and run by Kapitol, and its up to them what rules they operate (not the BBP registry or individual contest controllers).
    Its unlikely Kapitol will pay much if any attention to comments in places like this and Facebook; perhaps your question would be better addressed directly to them, or to the Regional forum?

    @ owain - The British Open rules do allow for borrowed players (certainly for the 3 Spring Festival contests).
  4. owain_s

    owain_s Member

    Well, there's nothing in their rules which says so, it's hardly clear and helpful if they hide it away somewhere else!



    Yes kapitol do own the Nationals and operate their rules however rule 26 says proposed rule changes should be submitted to the contest management and then introduced to kapitol for final approval. This was always going to be the next step after seeking opinions from this forum and other bands directly. As for the Open its 3 years since I last played in it and borrowed players were allowed as long as they where not playing in the same contest . I presumed this rule still stood and stand corrected if this has changed.
  6. owain_s

    owain_s Member

    Wasn't there a year, perhaps 2012, around the time of the demise of the Barnsley registry and Kapitol's coup, that the Spring Festival pretty much operated without a registry at all, depending on honesty? The rules I've quoted are the ones they've put in place since then for their own registry.
  7. Euphonium Lite

    Euphonium Lite Active Member

    Difficult one this as I can see both sides of the argument. The main issue is that this is the only contest (apart from winning the National Finals) that can alter your grading. There is always the danger that bands would obtain deps in a bid to climb the rankings – just as some bands will hire in help to get a crack at the mega prizes on offer at Butlins.

    Personally I’m not totally in favour with the deps thing for contests. Your band is your band, and if you haven’t got a full complement – or if you have some weaker players – then youre more likely to finish lower than a band that has got a full team of strong players. But that’s only fair because they are more likely to have that full team for their regular jobs plus smaller contests – they really are the “better” band at least for now. Many bands have got into financial trouble in the past by over-paying deps which in turn has led to the regular players becoming unhappy and moving elsewhere. The band is then left in a higher section with no players and – eventually in several cases – no future. Surely its better to drop a section or 2, perhaps sign a few players from local non-contesting bands and then rebuild as a team rather than scrapping round with the same names for an ever diminishing pool of the same players?

    Having said that if you’re going to have deps then one legit way might be that you can ONLY borrow players for regionals if they’ve also done 1 or 2 other contests with you in the last 12 months. That way they are still part of “the team” essentially even if they don’t play with that band full time and bands are less likely to over-extend for one contest. Another solution could be that you can register for 2 bands – perhaps a “main” and “backup” band, but then not be allowed to change your 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] band. However I can see that being a logistical nightmare…..
  8. stevetrom

    stevetrom Well-Known Member

    I really can't see a problem with registering with 2 bands, some restrictions like different sections/regions world be ok.

    If I'm happy to go and rehearse with 2 bands why shouldn't I contest with both, it's my hobby, it's my time.

    I doubt that the top bands would be affected but as you go down the sections I'm pretty sure most bands would be in favour of this.
  9. Bbmad

    Bbmad Active Member

    An subject that rears its head quite often.
    Bbmad's Opinion
    The sharing of players builds relationships between bands which is a good thing when in comes to filling chairs at concerts and summer engagements.
    Realistically the majority of lower section bands struggle to fill all the chairs for contest.
    There is little point in rehearsing a piece of music with missing parts.
    People who want to contest are more likely to stay loyal to a band that with the help of deps can take to the stage, than a band that chooses not to compete because they can't fill seats.
    People who do not wish to contest can remain as part of a band if short term replacements can be brought in.

    Bands could become complacent and reliant on deps.
    Bands could pull in experienced deps at the expense of junior members who would otherwise augment their ranks.
    Bands who through good planning and luck have a full team and have got ahead of the game would be back on a level field.

    For me, the pros outweigh the cons. I would propose that bands can borrow players from the section below. I do not agree with multiple registration, in fact I would restrict players to 1 transfer per 3 years, in line with the promotion/relegation system and to prevent the carnage caused by disloyal players. I would propose the borrowing of 3 players for 4th and 3rd, 2 for 2nd and 1st and 1 for Championship. All players to be borrowed from section below or same section in the case of 4th
  10. AndyCat

    AndyCat Active Member

    +1. It's OUR hobby, yet we are so locked in by old rules.
  11. Bbmad

    Bbmad Active Member

    Its our hobby so we will do want we want. The problem being that you do not own the contest. A more harsh person than I would say if you don't like the rules, set up your own national championship.
  12. owain_s

    owain_s Member

    Watch as the bands with the fattest cheque books (and/or most reckless management) buy in a set of top cornermen, and see the same players in the same seats up north and then down south two weeks later.

    How would that help improve banding? And what happens when bands with matching line-ups in different regions both qualify for the national?
  13. owain_s

    owain_s Member

    One transfer per three years?? Are you hoping to drive out of the hobby anyone who moves location more than that frequently?


    Very large can isn't it !!
    Seriously though,for the large majority this is our hobby and should be made a lot easier to enjoy . I personally wouldn't be in favour of borrowing more than 2 players . Yes we would all like to play in bands that have every seat filled and I'm fortunate to play in one , but it simply isn't the case . But situations like 4th section bands needing 4 percussionists for an area contest and not being allowed to except help from fellow bands does seem a little trivial.
  15. owain_s

    owain_s Member

    Missed the edit window, but wanted to add: loyalty is something to be earned, not something that can be legislated. If a band has a particular problem with 'disloyal' members, they need to take a long hard look at themselves and their organisation.
  16. owain_s

    owain_s Member

    Every time any topic such as this gets raised, the same response arises from some quarters: "too many bands, too few players".

    It will never be otherwise. There will never be a perfect player:seat match, and if there's a surplus of players in a location then new bands are started (youth bands, B bands, or new entities such as Zone One), or bands which struggle to ever enter a contest could find themselves filling up, etc. That bands are eager to attract players is good for bands which have the potential to improve, because when the right players come looking, they have a choice of bands and can pick the one which they can offer the most to.
  17. StellaJohnson

    StellaJohnson Active Member

    we have this conversation every year and most people agreeing to allow borrowed players

    Everyone complain about the rule. I have seen very few ( I Could count on one hand) bands appealing for players on here, on 4br and on facebook wanting players for the area.

    Whilst I have sympathy for those bands that ask. If bands asked openly instead of asking there mates they may have less empty chairs for the area.

    So far I haven't anywhere requesting players around Huddersfield area. If there was any bass players needed I would help out and sign for whoever, therefore assume they don't need any players.

    If you don't ask, you don't get


    Let me explain my thoughts.

    A northwest area band would be allowed to borrow 1 or 2 players from a band registered in a lower section from bands registered with the northwest association. 4 th section bands could borrow from the same section. Once you have played in an area contest you would not be able to play in another area . If players /bands break this proposed rule then they would face a penalty in the form of a ban .
  19. midlandman

    midlandman Member

    Can I make an alternative suggestion.
    music chosen for lower sections could be written for less players (the exact number could be debated).
    many bands use the 'reduced' music produced by the SA and others.
  20. Blossom

    Blossom Member

    A player can only play in one 'region' or one 'finals' anyway - the National Rules state:
    b) A player may play with only ONE (1) band in any ONE (1) series of Regional
    Championships, and with only ONE (1) band in any ONE (1) series of Finals’
    Championships, except for the application of the provisions of Rule 16.


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