John Harrison vs Joseph Harrison vs Jack Harrison

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by MoominDave, May 1, 2013.

  1. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Wonder if anyone here has info that could shed light on a confusion...

    John Harrison conducted Crossley's Carpets band (near Halifax) and also Cory in the 50s and 60s. This is known.

    A John Harrison also conducted Elland Silver (which is quite near Halifax) in the 80s and 90s. Was this the same John Harrison?

    On brassbandresults at the moment we also have entries for a Joseph Harrison and a Jack Harrison [Was John Harrison also known as Jack?] which seem to be in a state of some confusion. Does anyone know which J. Harrison conducted the following bands?

    Killamarsh, 1949
    Mirrlees Works, 1951
    St. Dennis, 1955-1956
    Harton Colliery, 1957
    Marsden, 1962
    Skelmanthorpe, 1963-1964
    Delph, 1970
    British Vita Works, 1971-1973
    St. Austell, 1974
    Wingates, 1974-1975
    Lindley, 1974-1976
    Lewis Merthyr, 1976
    Whitburn, 1975-1980
    Lochgelly, 1978
  2. ian perks

    ian perks Active Member

    I have a record with John Harrison conducting Wingates dated 1974.
    Hope this helps a bit
  3. iancwilx

    iancwilx Well-Known Member

    It was the Crossleys John Harrison that conducted Elland.I seem to recall he was into his 80s by then.

    ~ Mr Wilx
  4. timbo100

    timbo100 New Member

    I played at Lindley under John in 1974/1975. I seem to recall his son also played Euphonium with the band at that time.
  5. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Thanks both Ians and Dave, that's all very helpful. Keep the info coming!
  6. tubafran

    tubafran Active Member

    I'll have a chat with an old KSB player who may recall that - however it's a new name to me as the only conductors I'm aware of were George Burnham from formation to his death in the 40s followed by Jonny (Jack) Shimwell and his brother Cal who appears on the Brass Stats (I'd always thought Cal was principal cornet too)
  7. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    The single entry for "Jack Harrison" against Killamarsh is the Belle Vue May Contest Class A of 7/5/1949. This is surrounded by entries for Cal Shimwell. I suspect this was entered as simply "J. Harrison", and the matching software allocated it to the alphabetically first name that fitted in the absence of any other J. Harrison entries against Killamarsh.

    If this seems to be wrong, we can check with the person who originally entered the contest. It's not unknown for tired eyes and brain to type in the wrong thing - maybe it should have been J. Shimwell...

    In the absence of a Killamarsh band website, it's hard to know whether the apparent results gap between 1907 and 1931 is real or the result of one Killamarsh band folding c. WW1, and a successor band reforming later in that interval. I note that George Burnham shows up in both 1907 and the 1930s, suggesting continuity. However, there are results between 1895 and 1905 with different conductors, which muddy the picture further, if George was supposed to have conducted from the band's foundation.

    IBEW gives us the following information:

    [TABLE="width: 100%"]
    [TD]Killamarsh Silver Band[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]1887[/TD]
    [TD]Killamarsh St Giles Band (to 1890)[/TD]
    [TD]Amalgamated with Killamarsh Old Band in 1890[/TD]

    But then we have "Killamarsh St. Giles" recorded as late on as 1905...

    Some definitive info would be very helpful! "Killamarsh Old" seems to be completely forgotten by the internet apart from this reference. I'll update the Killamarsh entry with as much as can be inferred for now.
  8. geordiecolin

    geordiecolin Active Member

    Not sure where the Harton reference to a Joseph Harrison comes from. 4BR results archive for '57 Nationals refers only to a J.Harrison and I think that's where the data for the BBR entry was taken from. I can ask if there's anything in the Harton/Westoe archive which can shed any light on who J.Harrison actually was.
  9. geordiecolin

    geordiecolin Active Member

  10. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    I'm sure you're right Colin - as with the Killamarsh response above, the matching software, when presented with "J. Harrison" and a database that included no "J. Harrison" but a "Joseph Harrison", will have selected Joseph. It does a fair job, but sometimes (as here) needs sorting out by hand afterwards.

    If you could check, that would be much appreciated.
  11. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

  12. geordiecolin

    geordiecolin Active Member

    That Brass Band Archive document may shed some light on the other references, if any of them relate to National Finals. I would check myself, but haven't really got the time or inclination!
  13. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Already there!

    Sadly, no it doesn't, although I have extracted from it the correct room in the Crystal Palace for the top sections 1900-1913, and the arranger of the 1905 testpiece. All other info we already have.

    It does incorrectly list the trophy used as the Thousand Guinea Trophy for every contest - it was only used until 1938, and then replaced with the current trophy. See here:
  14. geordiecolin

    geordiecolin Active Member

    Also, having clarified the Harton entry as being John, this now means that the 1951 Mirrlees reference to Joseph has become anomalous, with him apparently conducting Mirrlees at Belle Vue in '51 and then never conducting at a contest again until appearing with British Vita 20 years later. This seems a little odd.
    Last edited: May 2, 2013
  15. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Indeed! I suspect it may turn out that Joseph conducted very few of the J. Harrison entries, whoever he was...
  16. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    I should add (rather immodestly, but accurately) - plus a whole lot more.
  17. geordiecolin

    geordiecolin Active Member

    1955 Nationals - BBR have conductor as Jack Harrison, BBA document lists John Harrison. Interestingly Jack Harrison is also credited by BBR as taking British Vita in '72 - I thought we'd pinned Joseph as taking British Vita throughout this period?!

    With regards to "Jack Harrison" I'm tempted to suggest that the '49 Killamarsh & both '55 St Dennis references are John and that '62 - '73 references are Joseph? This makes some sort of geographic sense. Haven't a clue about the '74 St Austell reference!
  18. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Oops, missed that one...

    Of course Jack is (or at least was) a common nickname for people called John, so it's entirely possible that John Harrison was familiarly known as Jack. Anyone know?

    St Dennis is in Cornwall, so St Austell probably goes with the same person. Probably.
  19. geordiecolin

    geordiecolin Active Member

    Goodness me, forget what I said about British Vita and Joseph. If you look at them in this period, it's an absolute car crash of Johns, Jacks and Josephs! What a mess.
  20. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Yep, hence this thread! Dave Holland drew my attention to the issue.

    Calling any ex- British Vita players out there...

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