Instrument Quick Switch Ability - with ease!

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by Emb_Enh, Jun 8, 2004.

  1. Emb_Enh

    Emb_Enh Member

    Instrument Quick Switch Ability - with ease!

    It is my belief that the guys/gals who 'SWITCH' between brass instruments with ease, are less mouthpiece dependant on the mpc rim to produce their initial buzz and therefore consequentially find it easier.

    Put simply, MOST brass players develop their surrounding embouchure muscles by using a fair amount of mpc pressure in the process.

    In doing this they then NEED the swelling and mpc 'imprint' to form what is their NORMAL buzzable/playable chop set.

    This of course leads to early endurance problems and a cutting off of the high register due to this excess.

    If one was to be able to form the embouchure [buzzable/playable] AWAY from the mpc over a long period of time, this would lessen the dependance on the inner mpc rim to provide support for the corner muscles and allow their particular buzz.

    This in turn would lessen the effect of mpc pressure, which in turn would lessen the swelling and mpc dependance, and also allow the use of different mpc sizes [cornet/trombone/euph/tn.hn etc...] as TRUE lip vibrations would'nt be as effected by the former problems.

    Mouthpiece Dependancy....

    [ the act of using the mpc rim as a crutch so as to produce the lip vibrations more easily as opposed to being able to buzz freely the same way on and off the inst. ]

    ...is also partially why some people find the 'momentary plus' of a new mpc rim exciting, only to find that later on, that momentary 'plus point' has retreated into the mists of time as their playing settles down again into a normal playing pattern.

    If your TOO mpc dependant this will have a significant effect on your perception of ANY mpc at ANY given point in your development.

    So what's the answer?...you have to realise that either....

    a) YOU are either making the sound on your brass inst. by buzzing efficiently ....or...

    b) YOU are using the mpc too much to aid you in buzzing and therefore, you will succumb to the parameters that the characteristics of the mpc you are trying will have on your personal physiology / brass inst. sound.

    In other words, if you're a very mpc dependant player and you do change mpc's from small to big or vice -verca [or even using different cup depths for style] then you are going to HAVE to change your old practice routine to cope with the negatives of the new mpc.

    Also the more 'mouthpiece dependant' you are in producing your sound the more difficult it is to use more than one mpc for different styles/insts.

    How do you know whether you are mpc dependant or not?

    Can you "free lip buzz" well without the mpc?

    MANY good 'SWITCHERS' are just are natural in their initial buzz set up which allows them to 'switch' with more ease than the rest ...and....they wonder why others are'nt in the same position.

    No great mystery.... : )
     
  2. impycornet

    impycornet Member

    Fascinating

    Thank you.

    :shock:
     
  3. ScrapingtheBottom

    ScrapingtheBottom Active Member

    Personally think buzzing is a load of bobbins.
     
  4. You are so right, those who can stand straight and buzz at or close to their normal embouchure without a mouthpiece and through a full range and volume find it easier and last longer.

    To lessen dependancy on the mouthpiece I like to tape up my jaw so i still have some forced control but not the imprint of my mouthpiece. helps heaps.

    I've seen heaps of Trom/Euph doubler's and the ones who come back with the cliche'd "trombone wrecks your tone man, don't do it" line - are the one's with who bust their chops into the euph mouthpiece to get their tone in the firstplace, and therefore can't adapt to the other instrument without leaving their primary behind for at least a couple of months.
     
  5. JOCKBLAST!

    JOCKBLAST! Member

    You are an IDIOT!!!!
    Sxxx. :guiness :roll:
     
  6. Okiedokie of Oz

    Okiedokie of Oz Active Member

    I jump from instrument to instrument in so many occassions that I no longer can afford to have problems. I major on tuba, but I need to feel confident that I can pick up a trombone, trumpet, horn, and even sop and not make a fool of myself.

    I still find at times I have some pains, but I no longer have the issues I used to have. A good buzz and lots of air helps most problems.
     
  7. Who is an idiot......and why?
     
  8. missflugel

    missflugel Member

    At the moment and on and off over the last 3 years I have alternated between cornet and flugel with a v brief spell on horn.
    Although there is not much of a difference between the mouthpieces I find that being able to buzz away from the mouthpiece means that the transition is much easier and I also find that it helps when im playing Flugel at uni band to go to Fishburn and play cornet within the space of a few hours.

    Being able to buzz away from a mouthpiece also improved my range as I found at uni band this afternoon, strange thing practice :shock:

    Buzzing away from the mouthpiece also means that the sound you produce ultimately from your instrument will be better (according to my old teacher).

    Jo x
     
  9. Emb_Enh

    Emb_Enh Member

    Fascinating

    Thank you. __Rob.
    =============

    Your welcome!
     
  10. Emb_Enh

    Emb_Enh Member

    Personally think buzzing is a load of bobbins.
    _________________
    Chris Satterley
    ============================

    For you it may be...it is'nt for everyone..it is no good to those who have a too closed aperture in the first place...but ...for players of all brass instruments whose aperture is too open or spread from mpc pressure or other reasons it can be a big help.

    ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL....
     
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  12. Emb_Enh

    Emb_Enh Member

    Ben C wrote:


    You are so right, those who can stand straight and buzz at or close to their normal embouchure without a mouthpiece and through a full range and volume find it easier and last longer.

    Yep! :)

    To lessen dependancy on the mouthpiece I like to tape up my jaw so i still have some forced control but not the imprint of my mouthpiece. helps heaps.

    weird man...but.. :)

    I've seen heaps of Trom/Euph doubler's and the ones who come back with the cliche'd "trombone wrecks your tone man, don't do it" line - are the one's with who bust their chops into the euph mouthpiece to get their tone in the firstplace, and therefore can't adapt to the other instrument without leaving their primary behind for at least a couple of months.

    ABSOLUTELY onthe money Ben C
     
  13. Emb_Enh

    Emb_Enh Member

    Chris Allen wrote

    I jump from instrument to instrument in so many occassions that I no longer can afford to have problems. I major on tuba, but I need to feel confident that I can pick up a trombone, trumpet, horn, and even sop and not make a fool of myself.

    sure thing bud! :)

    I still find at times I have some pains, but I no longer have the issues I used to have. A good buzz and lots of air helps most problems.

    AIR-inspiration-expiration-lip-buzz- delivery-efficiency--YOU GOT IT!
     
  14. Emb_Enh

    Emb_Enh Member

    Jo wrote:

    At the moment and on and off over the last 3 years I have alternated between cornet and flugel with a v brief spell on horn.

    Although there is not much of a difference between the mouthpieces I find that being able to buzz away from the mouthpiece means that the transition is much easier and I also find that it helps when im playing Flugel at uni band to go to Fishburn and play cornet within the space of a few hours.

    yep..there ya go!

    Being able to buzz away from a mouthpiece also improved my range as I found at uni band this afternoon, strange thing practice

    .thats right... smart practice makes perfect..not just 'practice'

    Buzzing away from the mouthpiece also means that the sound you produce ultimately from your instrument will be better (according to my old teacher).

    he's right...why?...cos....

    IT MAY...

    ...improve mpc pressure problems and create added strength via free lip buzzing.

    If you've NEVER lip / mpc buzzed in your life before and can play the horn brilliantly encompassing all registers musically with a great tone and be blessed with tremendous endurance...OR...you are'nt quite like I've described here but are totally happy with your playing anyway..

    ....THEN BUZZING MAY BE A WASTE OF TIME!!!

    But......

    let me also explain a little more of how I see buzzing fitting into the natural efficiency set up, and the possible resultant effect of how it might effect YOU regardless of what your current buzzing standpoint is.

    Lip buzzing is for strength of corner muscles as well as creating a concentrated buzzpoint. The control necessary is greater than mpc/leadpipe buzzing as you create your own corners rather than depending on the rim of the mpc to create the corners for you.

    You might like to transfer between lip, horn and mpc buzzing / playing a little on each alternately for a while to make sure that you are at the same angle, problems can occur otherwise.

    I suggest you buzz at a mezzoforte clear buzz, or as close as you can get to it. This will help in keeping the aperture focussed and the sound on the horn should be compact and centered as a result.

    In buzzing you may find you fall into one of these categories.....

    1. You can play the horn but if you try to mpc buzz you can't?

    Answer:
    You may be requiring a percentage of the resistance soundwave feedback from the horn/bell to be able to get the balance you require in your aperture set up to produce a sound. You also may be using left arm pull to add some more pressure to the lips to close off the aperture. If however you learn to mpc buzz well, when you add the horn you may find an improvement.

    2. You can play the horn and mpc buzz but if you try to lip buzz you can't?

    Answer:
    You may be requiring a percentage of resistance feedback from the mpc, plus a percentage of mpc pressure to be able to get the co-ordination you require in your aperture set up to produce a sound. If however you learn to lip buzz well, when you add the mpc you may find an improvement in your mpc buzzing AND on adding the horn that may improve too.

    3. You can play the horn / mpc and lip buzz but it destroys your chop feel?

    Answer:
    You possibly have a separate "lip buzz technique" / a separate "mpc buzz technique" and a separate "on horn technique" which are not synchronised therefore creating an imbalance which upsets your normal chop set up!


    Some people find that....

    ....due to one reason or another, either while playing on or off the horn they get a secondary buzz [doublebuzz].

    I believe that in most cases it is caused by tension and the way to eliminate this is lots of quiet playing to soften the center and eliminate that tension whilst keeping and improving firm corners.

    You also may want to check that when you do play on the horn that your mouthpiece on your lips is making a satisfactory seal and that no air is escaping via the sides etc...if THIS is the case then some lip + pencil exercises should sort it out.

    Give buzzing a try....but....

    BE CAREFUL THAT ALL YOUR LIP / MPC BUZZING IS SYNCHRONISED TO THE WAY YOU PLAY THE HORN OTHERWISE YOU CREATE AN IMBALANCE IN YOUR OVERALL CHOP SET UP!!

    Is it worth it for you your set up? -- I don't know... try for a decent period!!!

    "what shall I buzz?" -- simple beginner etudes...then progress!!

    Buzzing aids/play along CD's are also available on the market and worth trying if you find that you need that kind of particular help.

    I hope some of this helps you enjoy your music playing more...
    :D
     
  15. missflugel

    missflugel Member

    How knowledgeable you are.

    I just remember before I got lessons I couldnt buzz at all and now buzzing means that I can play much easier on both flugel and cornet.
    My teacher would make me buzz a scale on my lips and then on my flugel to increase my sound depth, it worked because my sound now (well on flugel anyway) is a nice full sound. It also helped my higher reigister by creating a more uniformed way of placing a mouthpiece on my lips therefore lessening the chance of my lips getting tighter as i get hgher up the register.

    Jo x
     
  16. fitzy

    fitzy Active Member

    Where in the manual does it say you have to buzz to play a brass instrument?
    If you are having doubts, try this experiment.
    1. Play a nice long note on your instrument.
    2. While you are doing this and have a good airflow going, slowly pull you mouthpiece out of the instrument.
    3. Is there a buzz when you have the mouthpiece all the way out?

    Try it in reverse 2 ways.
    1. Buzz into your mouthpiece like you usually would and then slide the mouthpiece into your intrument. Do you get a good sound?
    2. Get your chops set up with the mouth piece like you would usually, get a good airstream going and slide the mouthpiece into your instrument. Any different?

    I will admit that this may not work for tubas and the like but it is interesting to try on smaller instruments.
    I do all my "buzzing" away from my instrument and mouthpiece as I find this a better way to warm my chops up if I cant actually play. It may not work for everyone but it works for me and I switch instruments alot! (Bb Cornet, Sop, Trumpet (Picc, C, Bb, Eb) and Flugal)
     
  17. I must admit that I am unable to free buzz...........I was originally tought (38 years ago) to blow using very poor and old fashioned methods.

    eg "smile to play higher" ; "tongue between lips as if spitting a pip off ones tongue" etc

    In the last couple of years I have corrected the tonguing problem (which was a MAJOR change!) and five months ago had a lesson with Emb-Enh.

    He really does know what he is talking about, and in my case quickly "diagnosed" my mouthpiece dependance (hence the inability to free buzz).

    Rather than putting me through another major embouchure change (which would basically end my solo work for a number of months - if not longer) Roddy set a practice routine which will gradually correct my problems. The results of this practice is evident every day - I can now play longer and higher. Also, and this I feel shows the improvement, I can play higher at a sound level approaching a whisper. My aperture is correcting. Very little MP pressure is now used.

    Correcting MP dependance will for sure solve problems.

    Agree or disagree with Roddy as you will............ but I have heard him play on a number of occasions and can testify that he is a WOW player!!! He can play slow soft ballad type music and switch to major screaming and back - all with no effort.

    He is a great guy and a brilliant teacher. Can't wait till next month for the next lesson.
     
  18. Emb_Enh

    Emb_Enh Member

    1. Play a nice long note on your instrument.

    2. While you are doing this and have a good airflow going, slowly pull you mouthpiece out of the instrument.

    3. Is there a buzz when you have the mouthpiece all the way out?

    if not this is usually because the resistance that the instrument provides goes someway in air resistance feedback to closing up the lip aperture which in turn creates the buzz.

    Try it in reverse 2 ways.

    1. Buzz into your mouthpiece like you usually would..

    trouble is at this point lots of people tend to angle/wiggle/hold the mpc in a different way than if it were in the mpc, which..in turn causes them to play in a different than normal way so the info learned is maybe not valid...


    I will admit that this may not work for tubas and the like ....

    ..because they need even more air resistance as provided by the instrument on a bigger rim!


    I do all my "buzzing" away from my instrument and mouthpiece as I find this a better way to warm my chops up if I cant actually play.

    there ya go! :lol:

    It may not work for everyone...

    people with a too closed aperture as a starting point...

    but it works for me and I switch instruments alot! (Bb Cornet, Sop, Trumpet (Picc, C, Bb, Eb) and Flugal)

    Eexcellent!! :D

    More info on what happens at the business end [front end].....

    Lip Vibrations.....

    The following information/concepts were obtained from:
    "The Acoustical Foundations of Music" by John Backus. published by Norton, 1977.

    In his writings Mr. Backus noted that when observed and photographed through a transparent mpc, the lips of a trumpeter showed a rather smooth opening and closing of the lips, the motion being almost sinusoidal [sine wave shaped.]

    However, the pressure inside the mouthpiece was far from sinusoidal. He also observed that during most of a vibration cycle, the lips were open far enough so that the pressure in the mouthpiece was essentially the same as the pressure in the player's mouth.

    However, during a short part of a cycle the lips were closed , and the airflow through the lips was momentarily cut off. During this part of the cycle the pressure in the mouthpiece dropped to a considerably lower value. The pressure in the mouthpiece apparently had a sharply peaked waveform with a number of harmonics.

    Next…

    From "The Science of Sound", by Thomas Rossing, publ. Addison Wesley, 1990

    Mr.Rossing noted that upon playing the trumpet a standing wave builds up in the horn, but it immediately begins to die out, as the energy is dissipated at the walls of the tube or radiated as sound from the bell. He commented that in order to sustain the oscillation, the player must continue to supply puffs of air at appropriate times.

    Upon doing so, the steady flow of air into the instrument will not sustain the oscillation because energy would be added during half the cycle and removed during the other half.

    He said that in order to maintain the oscillation, air must be added at the appropriate part of each cycle ie. when the mouthpiece pressure is high. He observed that pressure pulses reflected back from the horn tend to force the player's lips to open at the right time during the cycle of oscillation.

    ============================

    What I would point out from the above info is that no matter what people THINK is going on in the inside of the rim in actuality, THE LIPS DO CONNECT / TOUCH / OPEN + CLOSE AT HIGH SPEED, WHEN YOU ARE PLAYING ON THE HORN.

    The degree of how much the lips touch / connect and the perceived shape at the "event horizon" [where it happens] we call.....


    T H E " A P E R T U R E "
     
  19. fitzy

    fitzy Active Member

    Thanks Emb_Enh,

    I usually just breath and blow and that works fine for me. Maybe we all think a bit too much![/quote]
     
  20. Emb_Enh

    Emb_Enh Member

    I usually just breath and blow and that works fine for me.
    =====================================

    others are'nt so fortunate bud! ...so...a little thought MAY help others...
     
  21. JOCKBLAST!

    JOCKBLAST! Member

    You are and everybody who talks about nothing!!!!!
    This topic being great example!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Sxx. :roll:
     
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