Ibstock Appeal

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by Smid, Feb 4, 2005.

  1. Smid

    Smid Member

    I was reading on 4bars rest about the appeal Ibstock had put in to stay in the Midlands First Section. I was wondering what the background to it all was and the arguments for and against. I know it is normal policy within the Midlands Area for the first section to normally promote the top two and demote the bottom two bands in the section based on their three years postioning, possibly including an averaged position if new to section, and guess this is the same across all sections and areas.

    But what are the rules regarding promotion and relegation and who sets them as I think this is where possibly the problem lies and leads to what may be called interpretation of the rules.

    I'm probably opening up a can of worms but it makes for a good discussion.

    Yes I do have an interest in this as we are a first section band in the Midlands.
  2. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    We have already been discussing this in our Mods area and have been waiting for the information to become public domain. We are happy that this thread has been started and should continue, and we certainly welcome healthy debate - but please remember that this issue is still in litigation and we do not wish to compromise any band or individuals position with regard to it.

    Please keep the debate civil, polite and healthy - in which case I am certain the thread will be very interesting. :tup

    On behalf of the tMP team.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2005
  3. backrowbloke

    backrowbloke Member

    Not got any more information than you Smid, though if Ibstock were'nt placed in the bottom 2 as suggested, why were they relegated...is it it reduce the numbers in our section?

    BTW - Is this the reason that we haven't received any contest details yet for the Midlands area - getting a bit worrying that we haven't heard anything - need to book rehearsal facilities and that's not possible until I get start times etc. If anyone has any times - please fire it over
  4. WoodenFlugel

    WoodenFlugel Moderator Staff Member

    This is a topic that is pretty close to me personally, as I know people on both sides of the fence. What the reports on 4BarsRest and BBW don't mention is that the two bands taking the bottom place are Wigston :)-( ) and Thorntons. I believe the decision to relegate Ibstock too is due to Thorntons being defunct for a couple of years now, and are showing little sign of ever coming back to life. So in effect there are only two bands being relegated, bands that are currently a going concern anyway. It's not an attempt to reduce the numbers in the first section, although that will be the result if Ibstock do end up in the second section.

    I guess all of this is the reason for the late notifications of draw times etc. I'm reliably informed that this has now been done and competeing bands will be informed shortly of which half of their draw they are in.
  5. tubafran

    tubafran Active Member

    The following is from Brass Band World

    BBW understands that the controversy arises over the rule which states that two bands finishing at the bottom of the gradings list should be relagated. Ibstock contend they were in the penultimate position in the grading list, but the last position was occupied by two bands, and that the Midlands Region erroneusly relegated three bands.

    So it seems to be on an interpretation of what the last "two bands" means, is it as the Midlands Regional Committee possibly believe that all the bands in the last two positions (3 in this case) or simply the bottom two bands (in this case a tie) should be relegated?

    What would have happened if say two bands above the last band had tied - how would these have been split - only options demote 1 only or all 3?

    Think in this case two bands had reached the relegation level why add a third on what appears to be an interpretation? Unless of course you know different.....
  6. tubafran

    tubafran Active Member

    Ian does this also mean that "Thorntons" have never actually competed in the 1st section and were just there in name only? If they no longer compete will they continue to be relegated until they reach the 4th section?

    Also what effect does the existance of non-competing bands have on "average" scores? and does this have any adverse or beneficial influence on the other bands in the section?
  7. WoodenFlugel

    WoodenFlugel Moderator Staff Member

    They were a competing 1st section band up until 2(?) years ago - in fact I think that they actually ended up in the first after being relegated from the Championship.

    As I understand it, a defunct band will continue to be relgated until hitting the 4th section, unless the band is formally wound-up and the Area Committee informed. I guess that now whatever happens to Ibstock, the same relegation rules need to apply for the 2nd & 3rd sections too.

    I'm not sure how much effect non-competing bands have on the tables...I would've thought that "Thorntons" will probably be relegated out of the second section too after this year's area (they will get two years averages and one placing below last if they don't compete this year) but it depends on how close the section is. I don't have the tables to hand to refer to but I believe that they had a decent result in their last year of competing, which is why they've "hung" in the 1st section for 2 years.
  8. Craigsav83

    Craigsav83 Active Member

    I believe that a band will automatically be relegated to the 4th section after 3 years of non-attendence at the areas, irrespective of which section they were in at the time - although this may differ in regions down the country :-?
  9. ScrapingtheBottom

    ScrapingtheBottom Active Member

    Yep, that's what happened to Bestwood.
  10. Owen S

    Owen S Member

    True in London and Southern Counties, I believe. I think this is the Rule k) sometimes referred to in the L&SCR grading tables, though they don't provide a copy of the rules to prove it.
  11. cornet.kid

    cornet.kid Member

    Are you sure you just get put straight into the 4th section (after 3 years no-show)? From what ive heard 2 years no-show puts you down one section BUT 3 years no-show you are taken as being inactive (in a sense) and are automatically struck off from the contest stage entirely and have to re-apply to be put back on the 'list' of bands who can compete...
    If one band has not appeared for the 2 years should they be counted in the 2 bottom scores? From the rules i have gained the impression that 2 years no-show is automatic relegation and therefore may not count you as one of the bottom two averages...
    Finally, can this be compared at all to he 3rd Section at the W.O.E last year when a total of (i think) 4 or 5 bands were relegated (from 3rd). But, this only happened because one of the two going down had the 2 year no-show - so does this not mean that Ibstock should be going down? (no offence meant to anyone at Ibstock) (and if the rules have not changed since then).
  12. stephen2001

    stephen2001 Member

    The Midlands region has always been a bit awkward to predict because of the sheer number of bands in it!

    My interpretation of the relegation rules is that two bands who competed in either that or the previous years contest will be relegated, along with any band that has not competed in that section for the last two years. At the same time, only two bands are promoted regardless, which is I think why there are a lot of bands in the 3rd and 4th sections of the Midlands.

    IMHO, the rules for relegations and promotions need to be made a lot clearer for every area, not just the Midlands. That way, there is no doubt of where a band stands in terms of relegation and promotion.
  13. sparkling_quavers

    sparkling_quavers Active Member

    this is what happened to Bestwood, Chris. The band did not enter the area for 3 years in a row and was taken off the 'list of competing bands' the band had to then register to compete and starts automatically in the 4th section. (as i understand anyway!) this is also the reason why many struggling bands will enter the regionals on that 3rd year with half a band, with a band of complete 'signed only for the area' understanding they may have a poor chance of doing well but even with a bad result it would mean, for example, 1st to 2nd section, rather than 1st to 'struck of the list and having to re-register and be graded 4th section'. That is how I understand the system works.

    IMHO it is a good rule. If bands are allowed to just work their way down the tables then it will jsut affect relegation/promotion for current competing bands.
  14. Craigsav83

    Craigsav83 Active Member

    In not entirely sure..... the SBBA website is offline at the moment, so I cant check the individual clauses. I think as long as your band is paying the annual subscription fee, you will not be 'struck off', but will have to start at the bottom of the tree again. Not sure about having to re-register though. I suppose there will be regional variations up and down the country :-?

    I sure what sparkling_quavers has said is correct, I'm just not very good at explaining things!
  15. stevetrom

    stevetrom Well-Known Member

    Has Ibstock's appeal been finally agreed by the Area committee/National Council/Ibstock?

    If so what section are they playing in?

    I have also heard a rumour that Unity will not be going this year, if so the 1st Section in the Midlands could be getting too small to warrant a split draw which will affect all the bands attending.

    Can anyone shed any light on what is going on?
  16. satchmo shaz

    satchmo shaz Active Member

    I have also heard that Unity arent going to the area, but dont know how true it is
  17. backrowbloke

    backrowbloke Member

    Is it an interpretation though.....out of curiosity I took a look at the rules

    Rule (g) states that thetwo bands with the poorest aggregrate placings will be relegated. It doesnt categorically state what happens if two bands have identical aggregate placings

    Rule (k) states that any band not competing for two consecutive years will be relegated at the discretion of the committee in addition to any action under rule (g) - Again its not entirely clear what happens if that band is already in the relegation zone.

    IMHO if 2 bands tie for last place, then they AND the band above them should go down. It is tricky as it is debatable as to whether the rules apply to the last 2 bands or the last 2 placings. Perhaps the federation need to clariy the ruling as I'm sure this situation will arise again. It would also be interesting to find out what has happened in similar situations in other regions. Especially in this case as the Thorntons it would appear would have been relegated under rule (k) anyway.

    EDIT - BackrowBloke Just thought - what dictates the order in which rules are applied? If rule (k) is applied first, then Ibstock did end up in the bottom 2 bands

    However, the rules do state that the BFBB decision is final.

    Finally, did any of the media (4Br, BBW etc) ask the regional committee for a statement? I have heard that the reason that they did not attend the BFBB hearing was that they recieved <7 days notice and could not physically attend due to other commitments, not that they refused.
  18. Steve

    Steve Active Member

    Bedworth Brass
    Bilton Silver (Rugby)
    Brackley & District
    City of Coventry Brass
    Foss Dyke
    Gresley Old Hall
    Jackfield Elcock Reisen
    Raunds Temperance
    Shirley Band
    Unity Brass (FMUFS)

    Brass Band Worlds list of competing bands this year at midlands 1st section area. Obviously now add Ibstock (appeal upheld) but remove Unity (99% sure not going) and I fail to see the need for a split draw.
  19. stevetrom

    stevetrom Well-Known Member

    Where are Glossop ?

    I was just doing my own (unifficial) pre-contest grading tables and according to my maths Glossop should have been relegated from Championship - did they appeal? If so, on what grounds?

    Or have I just got it wrong !
  20. satchmo shaz

    satchmo shaz Active Member

    dont think glossop have entered this year

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