Hurricane Katrina

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Chat' started by DublinBass, Sep 1, 2005.

  1. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    Maybe, I'm being a bit harsh...and don't get me wrong, I feel bad for the people, but they built a city IN THE MIDDLE OF RIVER!!!

    I just pray that as they recover from this they don't try to rebuild the know the saying, "first time shame on you, second time shame on me."

    (I'll probably end up buying the bracelet and donating money anyways...I don't know why)
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2005
  2. toby hobson

    toby hobson Member

    Well said i agree,all though at the end of the day people are dying!!!!! got to be honest though two things come to mind when i see all the horific destruction on the tv. 1 i wonder if the rescue efforts would be better if George W didnt have most of his army deployed in the folly in the desert. 2. I wonder if the government of america would be reacting as slowly if the people being killed were mainly middle class whites!!!!!!
  3. flower girl

    flower girl Member

    HI, i was having a discussion yesterday about hurricane Katrina, and we couldn't decide whether the money raised should be used to help rebuild the damaged area's (e.g new orleans) or if it should be used to find and build homes in safer areas for those who have been affected. just wondered what everyones views were about this?

  4. toby hobson

    toby hobson Member

    just come across this

    I think this letter sums it up...
    Friday, September 2nd, 2005

    Dear Mr. Bush:

    Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

    Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

    Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

    I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

    And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

    On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

    There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

    No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

    You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.


    Michael Moore
  5. bigmamabadger

    bigmamabadger Active Member

    I'm going to be controversial. Please listen, I shall say this only once...


    Hurricane Katrina has wreaked terrible damage and my heart goes out to those caught up in the tragedy. If there is anyone on here who is involved in any way then my thoughts are prayers go out to you. It is going to get worse before it gets better. If we can send expertise in the form of search-and-rescue teams, military logistics teams, firecrews, flood-damage experts etc. we should. Medical aid is going to be crucial too, since the receding and stagnant water will become a breeding ground for things like malaria and West Nile Fever.

    But why should the European Union vote to divert oil supplies to America to top them up? (Heard today on Jeremy Vine) Surely if all the Americans who haven't been hit by floods didn't use their cars for one day the surplus generated would more than compensate for the amount used by the armed forces? We pay 92p a litre for fuel as it is, the Americans pay something like 92c a gallon.

    America controls a vast percentage of the planet's wealth (haven't got my Michael Moore handy to tell me how much) so why should we send them more? All they need to do is divert some of their existing wealth into damage-limitation and restructuring funds?

    The cry from some quarters that only the poor and ethnic minorities are really suffering in New Orleans (and I'm sure this is true, it always is) smacks to me of emotional blackmail. "Please give money to help these poor people (then we won't have to)" America is more than capable of financing the rescue operation. The problem would seem to be a logistical one, compounded by the stupidity of various governing bodies (Yo, dubya!) rather than a financial one.

    If people want to make personal donations in the form of money, food/clothing parcels, they should be free to do so, (and I may well do so myself) but I could not support any financial aid given by our state.

    I should add that most of my information comes from the Jeremy Vine show today, and a brief flick through todays Times, so I might not be fully up to date, esp. on the oil thing.

  6. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    I don't think any money should be used to rebuild. I think it should be used in the immediate future to help families affected survive. In future use to relocate and develop other areas not in the river. If they do its throwing money away, because it will happen again. Don't gamble against mother nature.
  7. johnmartin

    johnmartin Active Member

    Why should they use it to rebuild. America is the worlds most powerful country, militarily and economically. The federal government could maybe take 1% of its defence budget and use it for rebuilding projects. Any money raised should go to those immediately affected, many of whom are the poorest sections of American society.

    It's a scandal that relief efforts are being hampered by the fact that many of the military transport and guard units required for this are in currently abroad dealing with George W's little excursion in Iraq. The American public will take note of the abject failure of their present incumbent and his administration to deal effectively with this emergency.
  8. FlugelD

    FlugelD Member

    An 'expert' (I don't know how 'expert' he was...) on BBC TV yesterday pointed out that a major percentage of Holland is below sea level. They have dykes that can withstand a once in a lifetime storm, with massive spare capacity.

    A similar (or possibly less) percentage of the Gulf coast (e.g. New Orleans) is below sea level, but has a less than evens chance of withstanding similar local weather - i.e., a major blow (certainly less than 'once in a lifetime' - more like once in 20 years) will cause breaches. The U.S.A. has played a percentage game, and lost. The Dutch have massive dykes, the U.S. had/have a few concrete walls, and, reportedly, a lack of will and/or finance to improve matters.

    Because of this shortsightedness, there is a risk of major worldwide economic turmoil due to spiralling U.S. fuel prices. (Hey, they could be paying up to a third of what we do for a gallon of gas - major disaster!)

    The people need help.

    The nation needs a kick up the ****.

    (BTW, the Gulf has record sea temperatures - over 30C - a spawning ground for more hurricanes. Global warming, anyone? Kyoto, Mr Bush? Dare I say, Reap, and ye shall sow?*)

    (*Not a christian, but biblical quotes are sometimes useful...;) )
  9. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    What an interesting discussion (and I won't use the term debate because it seems almost everyone is on the same side)!! need to quote Michael Moore as I think his filtering of facts actually devalues your very valid arguement.

    A good deal of you seem to be taking issue with giving aid to the US because of its already vast wealth, which bothers me a bit. I would take issue (as many of you also have) with their lack of foresight and preparation.

    Let me just pose a scenario since we have had two incredible natural disasters in the past 9 months.

    If a Tsunami hit the Southeast US with a mere 3 hours notice, how would your opinion be of support?
    If a hurricane hit India offercoming insufficient levees, how would your opinion of support be?

    People were given well over 24hrs notice to evacuate La and many many family members affected by the Tsunami in India (there were students at my school in London last year that lost parents) would have loved to have that luxury!!

    Whilst I agree with the ends of most all of you the process differs a bit.

    (BTW bigmama badger...gas prices are now over $3/ gallon!!!) ;-) :p
  10. toby hobson

    toby hobson Member

    I didnt quote him as such,its just i happend to stumble across what he a writen on a Manchester City Forum (yes things like this are debated on the city forum unlike the Salford United forum where sick jokes about it are common place)!!!!! and my feelings on the matter seemed to coinsidently mirror his. If a tsunami was to hit India ect people would proberbly be shocked and give money as there country is one of the poorest in the world (dispite the fact that there own dodgy government seems to have money for a on going border dispute and a potentialy catostrophic arms race!!) but unfortunatly if the same disaster was to hit the U.S I think people would proberbly think well, you can afford to run 10 liter cars,you can afford to take your imperial nastyness to all corners of the world,you can afford to have very un enviromently freindly trips to space,you can afford to poisen the world and refuse to do anything about it,you can afford to back the most evil but apperently democratic government in the middle east turning the region and now the world into a blood bath,you can even afford to treat potential electorate like something you have to wipe of your shoe after a trip to the park ect ect .............sort it out your self!!!!!!!!! BTW petrol prices up north reached 95 pence per liter yesterday. America fights the war, Briton pays for it!!!!!!!
  11. BigHorn

    BigHorn Active Member

    What a naughty man that Mr Bush is.
    First of all he builds a state in a low lying swamp and surrounds it by flimsy herbacious borders.
    Then he fills it with the people he previously enslaved and does not care about.

    He evacuates all the people he likes (who are the same colour as him) and then personally causes global warming on a massive scale so that a huge storm breaks his flimsy defences and floods the poor inhabitants (who he taunts by letting them loot all the tv and hi-fi shops but then makes sure there is no electricity to plug them into)

    He has craftily arranged for all the people who could have helped to go and beat up on some other poor people - who are also not the same colour as him. (He wants their oil you see.)

    I bet he also kicks his dog and picks his nose.

    Sorry for being so facaecious, but I think is absolutely obscene that a huge natural disaster on the same scale as the tsunami is being used as a political weapon to attack one person.
    Save your energies to offer releif and sympathy for the actual victims. Political point scoring off the backs of peoples suffering serves no point at all.
  12. Steve

    Steve Active Member

    Of course new orleans should be rebuilt, it is a place with great history and some very proud people who have great respect for the way the city has turned out. I was glad to see a reference to Holland as they have managed to safeguard most of the high risk spots by investing in and developing their flood control methods and are now looking pretty prepared for the threat of flooding. The same needs to be done in N.O, anyone who has seen the recovery workers in action following a hurricane in America will realise quite how good the Americans are at pulling together following these beasts of nature and if I could offer any help I wouldnt hesitate. If a hurricane hit London and the thames flooded, would we be saying "shouldnt have built it on a river"? I think not.
  13. toby hobson

    toby hobson Member

    Fair point. But of course it wont be long until George Dubya will be doing plenty of point scoring him self on the back of this disaster. It’ll be a matter of time until he’s there putting his arm around women and children “sharing there burden” like the Messiah him self!!!! He’ll also make lots of promises of financial aid that much like the tsunami money, proberbly wont fully materialise!!!!!! Nobody is suggesting that Mr Bush is to blame for all of Americas historical short comings (I like the point about slavery by the way) but I cant help but find it at best ironic and at worst sick that the 7000 national guards men who are based in the area are unable to do the task they are there for because some idiot sent them to Iraq to steal oil (or freedom fight )as it seems to be called these days! While everyone should take time to think about what those poor people are going through it shouldn’t however stop them from taking time to reflect on the job these various reprobates around the world are doing at running our countries. We in England have someone just as bad who lied to take us to war. People shouldn’t get so caught up in the stampede for charity after events such as these, most of the events that take place do nothing but elevate there supposed organisers to near saint status (I see Bob Geldof has even taken to wearing long white flowing robes when conducting interviews!!) I’m particularly sick of the likes of Bono telling us we arnt doing enough, while owning 10 Hotels!!! I wonder how much third word debt could have been wiped if all the participants of live 8 had donated half there personal fortunes each? I feel sick to the bottom of my stomach when I see the scenes in New Orleans and I don’t even live there, never mind run the country!!
  14. bigmamabadger

    bigmamabadger Active Member

    Sorry, my information is woefully out of date!:frown: ;) However, at a conservative 92p per litre we still pay over £4 a gallon while (for those of you who can't do currency conversions in your head) $3 = about £1.65. Mind you loads of ours is ****** tax! :mad: :mad:
    Badger who is not straying from the point at all. Merely sidelining...
  15. JessopSmythe

    JessopSmythe Active Member


    In the words of MeatLoaf -
    You took the words right out of my mouth!

    Why not divert some of the money they're ****ing up the wall in Iraq?
  16. sniperjp

    sniperjp Member

    I have noticed that every time there is disaster in america bush runs like a little girl.
    Where was he in fahrenheit 11 and where was he when hurricane katrina hit. promising that he would show up, but he showed up and all he cn b bothered to do is make a speech. shame on him
  17. johnmartin

    johnmartin Active Member

    I'm no fan of George W, most dangerous man on the planet, or his administration but unfortunately that's what Presidents do. They turn up and make a speech to provide a focus and a rallying point for the people. That's what the American people have come to expect. The real measure of effectiveness is how quickly those words are converted into action by the people on the ground. They can only act when sufficient resources and funding are released from the Federal Government. This is starting to happen now and the pace is quickening, however the damage has already been done, pardon the pun. For a country like America to have bodies lying in the streets for four days and hospitals unable to work properly is an absolute disgrace. Unfortunately wee George won't be standing again, big cheers, but hopefully the American people will not forget how his administration acted here and they will get their just rewards at the next election. I certainly can't see the State of Louisiana voting Republican next time round.
  18. bruceg

    bruceg Active Member

    Is G Dubya the only president to have neglected the southern states of the USA? I don't think so. Could he have done more to protect New Orleans? Maybe. But the state / federal government split in the USA means that it's probably all a bit more complicated than we're making out.

    I would have thought that if state officials were openly attacking the federal government then it would be reasonable to assume that they might just be trying to deflect some criticism away from their own deficiencies. G Dubya is, indeed, an odious little creep but it's not fair for him to shoulder blaim for all the world's ills.

    As far as sending aid to the US goes, I really can't decide whether this is the right or the wrong thing to do. On the one hand people are in a terrible condition right now but they are citizens of the richest and most powerful nation in the world and they're on home turf. If the US government, with its vast resources, can't help them then whatever pittance comes from the rest of the planet is unlikely to make much of a difference.

    However, we in the UK still owe a debt of gratitude to the people of the US (that we'll never be able to repay in full) for their financial and material aid that enabled us to remain an independent sovereign state some 60 years ago.

    So could we maybe stop with the black and white analysis folks (no pun intended) and consider the myriad shades of grey that are also involved.
  19. toby hobson

    toby hobson Member

    All fair points but remember we have been paying America back since the end of WW2 both financially and through our "special relationship" We went into WW2 one of the richest countries in the world and came out of it virtually bankrupt. America jumped on that like all good capitalists do screwing us into the ground with there lend lease scheme for war ships a debt we finished paying back in 2004 and through massive loans that have crippled our economy for years one of the consequences of which was our reluctant sale of the Empire which in turn has lead to further bloodshed! We let them base there Nukes here, have a huge military presence in Europe, we support them like dutyfull lap dogs in every disgusting paranoia or looting war they get involved in and even more recently we gave them permission to set up a massive radar base as part of there controversial missile defence program in RAF Fylingdales in North Yorkshire. If America hadn’t joined in the war and Hitler had seen off the Russians, I wonder who he would of set his sights on next!! Always the best policy in a scrap to get the first punch in!!!!!!!!! America have always been the hardest hitters!!
  20. johnmartin

    johnmartin Active Member