Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by flower girl, Jan 30, 2006.

  1. flower girl

    flower girl Member

    Ammanford south Wales
    I have been trying to double and tripple tongue, and although i can do it, it isn't clear and it is inconsistent. My tutor says there isn't a great deal of advice left that he can give me, which poses me with a great problem as i am doing my grade 8 in a few months and in order to pass, the tonging that i do will need to be clear. Has anyone got any advice on how to get more clarity as no matter how much i seem to practise i cant seem to gett any better.

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Lisa x
  2. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    - depends on what the weakness is! If it is the regulation of the tuplet or duplet then slow deliberate practice is required, both on static pitch and movement of intervals. If it is the 'throat kick' that is the problem then that must be rehearsed until it is as strong as the tongued notes. When tripling, try some emphasis on the second note rather than the first and also experiment replacing the 2nd tongued note with the kick. Hope this helps!
  3. flower girl

    flower girl Member

    Ammanford south Wales
    thanks i'll give that a try :)
  4. Soprano_saes

    Soprano_saes New Member

    I was taught by my tutor to keep the tongue right behind the top set of teeth, so that it is only moving a very short distance inside the mouth. You can always try practicing without the instrument - when your not busy, by making the "tonguing sounds"

    Double - ta ka ta ka etc.
    Triple - ta ta ka ta ta ka etc.

    Also bear in my the position of the tongue with relation to the pitch. For higher notes use tee, middle range use ta and for the lower range use tu.

    You may get some funny looks :-? , but i found that it helped!
  5. BrianT

    BrianT Member

    Wantage, Oxfordshire
    Good for you doing Grade 8! Which piece needs the double and triple tonguing?
    I think it's good to practice double tonguing with the K first - K T K T K T rather than T K. This'll strengthen the K. Also try tonguing things entirely with K.
    This'll only get stronger with lots of repetition - practise chromatic scales double and triple tongued with a metronome and push the tempo by 1 bpm every few days. You'll see your progress. Also, as the notes get faster, any lag between valvedown time and the tongue causes a smeary sound. Make sure your right-hand posture allows you to press the valves down really positively. Also, try and think about the notes - the tune - rather than the mechanics of producing the notes. End of waffle. Hope this helps.
    Cheers for now,
  6. flower girl

    flower girl Member

    Ammanford south Wales
    Both suite in f major (william Lloyd Webber) and polka (allen vizzuti) require double tonging.
  7. persins

    persins Member

    Reading, England
    Although it sounds quite bizarre, it is important to practice it slowly. Only once you have got the strength in the "Ka" consistently is it worth speeding up to a more normal tempo. If you go for the speed to quickly, you'll find yourself getting into bad habits and then reach a limit whereby you'll have to start all over again. And believe me, that's very very annoying!!!
  8. Daisy Duck

    Daisy Duck Member

    Sussex and London
    I agree with the above advice - practise slowly.
    Allen Vizzutti has some really good tonguing exercises in his books.

    Can't believe I'm giving advice on tonguing - I'm rubbish at it!

    I would have chosen pieces without any complicated tonguing bits - I'm okay at double tonguing in short bursts but I can't even think about triple tonguing. If you play Scissor Sisters Comfortably Numb and play along with the guitar line, that helps with tonguing (and it's fun - starts on a C sharp).
  9. BeatTheSheep

    BeatTheSheep Member

    Chorley, Lancs
    This is to add to all the other comments. Try producing short sharp notes without tongue (and very detached), then when they are coming out properly add the syllables required, usually the K as this is the hardest! This really improves the clarity. Something like that. Good luck
  10. Bass Trumpet

    Bass Trumpet Active Member

    Hi all,
    So many people get hung up about what the tongue is doing without thinking about the basics of producing a note - I'm not suggesting this is the case, but in my experience it is a very common fault. Double/triple tonguing will only work well with a good column of air behind it. I personally try to support as if the passage was one long note, then start to think about tonguing.

    By the way, I have also found that both sorts of triple tonguing work equally well (TTK and TKT), it just comes down to personal preference.

    Best of luck with the Allen Vizutti, they are all nice studies, but a bit of a blow!
  11. sugarandspice

    sugarandspice Active Member

    Are you practicing both triple and double at the same time? Why?! Focus on one, double tounging, then when you've mastered move on to tripple tounging, or i think i have been told to do it the other way round in the past?
    Concentrate on one till you're confident you can do it. Get the arban out! :)
  12. dickyg

    dickyg Member

    East Riding of Yorkshire
    I think that the advice to practice slowly one of the methods is good. I was also taught to play legato and 'think' da da ga as it gives a better, more fluent sound. Don't try to play too fast, too soon and eventually it will 'kick in'. Triple tongue is probably best to tackle first although double is probably more useful. Also,I know its 'old fashioned' but you can't beat hitting the 'Arban'

    Good Luck

    As my old teacher used to say, Trumpet playing is a religion - sound, intonation, production, rhythm!!!
  13. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    West Sussex
    There's some good advice on here, and I hope its going well.... but why do you think you can't pass grade 8 without double & triple tonguing? If every other aspect of your playing is good enough (and presumably it is or you wouldn't go for it), why can't you just pick different pieces?!
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