Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by Lil Miss, Nov 10, 2004.

  1. Lil Miss

    Lil Miss Active Member

    I Really Help With Tryin To Work Out Whether The Neruda Trumpet Concerto (first Movement) Is In Binary Ternary Or Rondo Form????
  2. Di

    Di Active Member

    Really sorry I couldn't help with your question but, please do tell, how did the exam go?
  3. Straightmute

    Straightmute Active Member

    I don't have a score with me but if my memory is correct it is sonata form. Certainly there's a second group in the dominant (with the strange dotted rhythms) and a clear recapitulation. If you need to choose between the three options you quote, Ternary might seem to be the best bet.

  4. IckleSop

    IckleSop Active Member

    good luck!
  5. davidquinlan

    davidquinlan Member

    Looks like it is a Sonata to me.... although as a concerto that includes orchestral exposition then soloist exposition it is not easy to say for sure.
    Final movements of concertos are ususally Rondo form.
  6. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    It seems to be a combination of the Baroque Ritornello and Sonata Forms ...

    Ritornello (tutti)
    Exposition (solo)
    Ritornello (tutti)
    Development (solo)
    Ritornello (tutti)
    Recapitulation & Cadenza (solo)
    Ritornello/Coda (tutti)
  7. davidquinlan

    davidquinlan Member

    Hmm, not sure you can call the opening section a Ritonello as it denotes in a concerto the return of the full orchestra after a solo passage...solo hasn't played yet...
  8. ComposerAndy

    ComposerAndy Member

    It's basically a sonata form. If you can only call it binary ternary or rondo, you say it's closest to ternary but say how the composer has developed this rather simpler form.
  9. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    looka here:-
  10. davidquinlan

    davidquinlan Member

    That's interesting.. I just looked up my dictionary to confirm my understanding of what ritornello means... "a little return" ....

    Ah well, I think Lil Miss's question has been answered!
  11. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    No hard feelings! It seems contradictory when the introduction is classed as a ritornello, but it is standard in describing that form. What confused me was Neruda is always attributed in writing his first movement of concertos in the true Ritornello form used by Vivaldi. The Concerto in Eb (1st Mvt.) is more like what Mozart would use, a combination of both that and Sonata Form. Only difference is that, for Mozart, he usually has an additional ritornello section between the recap. and cadenza. Word must also be mentioned that the Neruda concerto was never performed in his lifetime and many editions exist of the original manuscript (... I based my ad hoc analysis on Segie Nakariakov's performance). :-?

    p.s., which reminds me to look for the NAXOS recording of Niklas Eklund playing it! Superb player and hopefully he is playing the concerto on Baroque trumpet rather than the valved version. (

    Ouch! Just found out he performs all concertos on keyed trumpet:-

    about the keyed trumpet ...
  12. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

  13. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    finally ... according to, the analysis given by 'Blue Gene' Tyranny is:

    "The opening movement is in an Allegro tempo in 2/4 time, and follows classical Sonata-Allegro form. Introduced by the orchestra only, the theme and its articulation are very Mozartian: two marcato notes in a descending fourth, a lighter measure of staccato sixteenths on a scale, a measure of two skipping gestures also in fourths, a second scalewise staccato passage, and four measures combining the skipping with the staccati.

    At this point, Mozart would very likely repeat the first eight measures, but Neruda cleverly chooses to extend the theme by four measures on roots descending from the IV stepwise back to the I, and then by six measures of a slow crescendo over a tension-creating pedal tone on the V. The orchestra then explodes in a forte on the I, but we are still developing, so instead of the theme repeating, the next ten measures are filled with trumpet-like gestures over a strident bass. And just when the time seems right to walk in triumphantly with the theme, Neruda wisely avoids this by introducing a secondary theme played at a soft, piano dynamic. Extremes of forte and piano alternate every four measures until cadencing powerfully. The trumpet enters with the main theme which is stated with all the previous development, and is then traditionally modulated to the key of the fifth, the key of the relative minor, and recapitulated. A brief open cadenza is built upon gestures from the A and B themes, and the orchestra concludes the movement with a noble restatement of the last 14 measures of the introduction."
  14. Straightmute

    Straightmute Active Member

    So my memory was fairly correct. What I also remember were the extended sequential passages, very elegant and more reminiscent of Vivaldi than Mozart.

  15. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    ... still mighty confusing though. The Associated Board doesn't list which version is being used ( and all the information I have gathered seem to refer to as many! :-? If McNaughton's historical analysis is correct in stating that there were many errors in the original and thus rendering the manuscript almost unplayable, the subsequent adaptations could fit any hybrid sonata style of the period.

    post-script: I have discovered that it is John Wallace's arrangement that is being used for exam purposes! Will now have to check who did the Nakariakov version.
  16. Lil Miss

    Lil Miss Active Member

    thankyou everyone you guys r the greatest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I suggested to the examiner that it was sonata form but much to my suprise, he said it was close to sonata but was Tenary form.....i really need to catch up on my theory!!!!!!!!!
    I managed to answer all the other questions (much to my suprise)
    I'll know my results by next week some time, cross ur fingers for me :)

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