Haydn Trumpet Concerto- Trills

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by fitzy, May 4, 2005.

  1. fitzy

    fitzy Active Member

    I'm playing the Haydn trumpet concerto in Eb at the moment and I'm trying to decide once and for all how the trills should be played. I have one of my teachers telling me that they should be played from the note. ie: f to g, and my other teacher (who I agree with more) to trill from the note above like a baroque trill. ie: g to f.
    From what I can work out, the style of trills in the classical period was changed after Haydn wrote the concerto by none other than Mr Hummel. Hummel changed trills to start on the note of the trill. I haven't been able to find a recording of the Haydn with trills played from the note, they are all baroque trills, but all of the recordings of the Hummel concerto are trilled from the note.
    I don't have a Groves dictionary in front of me so any help would be appreciated.

  2. Crazysop

    Crazysop Member

    I was always tought to trill from the note above on Haydn Trumpet concerto, and as you say all recordings of it that i've listened to trill from the note above. However looking at Arbans Cornet Method Trills section, it shows starting from the note of the trill.
    Personally I would go for trilling from the note above for Haydns stuff, just sounds right.
  3. brasscrest

    brasscrest Active Member

    I've never heard the Haydn performed with anything other than baroque trills.

    As far as the Arban, remember that Arban was (1) not writing about trumpets, and (2) writing in a much later era than Haydn, when the "standard" trill had been changed to start from the note.
  4. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Here's what the Oxford Dictionary of Music has to say about it:

    Haydn lived from 1732-1809; Beethoven from 1770-1827; Hummel from 1778-1837 (although the dictionary neglects to mention his Trumpet concerto at all). Sounds like an upper-note start it should be.
  5. mikelyons

    mikelyons Supporting Member

    Don't forget as well that Haydn was really a Baroque composer who lived too long. What we dignify with the designation 'Classical period' was really only about 50 years long.

    Haydn was more than happy to keep using Baroque instruments when everyone else was using the new stuff - I'm thinking harpsichord here, but I don't see it as likely that he would just ditch all of the traditions with which he had grown up.
    Another thing worth considering - which sounds better? I suspect that one form will work better than the other. A guess would be that the Baroque trill will work better than the 'Classical' trill 'invented' by Hummel and his contemporaries.
  6. davidquinlan

    davidquinlan Member

    Try and get a recording of Cripisan Steele-Perkins playing it on a reproduction keyed trumpet (the instrument for which it was originally written).
    I'm pretty sure he starts on the upper note..

    Any time I've worked on the piece (with many tutors now!!) they have always been upper note trills.
  7. Adrian Horn

    Adrian Horn Member

    I'm sure Crispian goes from the upper note. That is stylistically correct for the period and how I've always been taught.
  8. sterlingsop

    sterlingsop Member

    I was always taught to trill it from the note above with a turn at the end on this one. Sounds right!!
  9. Straightmute

    Straightmute Active Member

    MoominDave has said it all. Upper note for Haydn and Leopold Mozart if you ever do that one. You may get away with lower note trills in Hummel 2nd movement (what does that wavy line really mean???) but the outer movements are still very classical and seem to sound better with upper trills.

  10. trumpetmike

    trumpetmike Well-Known Member

    Start the trills on the upper note.
    Don't trill too fast.
    If it doesn't sound beautiful, it needs work.

    Always remember that ornaments (including trills) are not the important part. The analogy I use when teaching this (and which I was taught with by one of my tutors - I wish I could say which) is to think of a musical phrase (or even a note) as a beautiful young lady - the ornaments are her earrings.
    The important thing is the gorgeous young lady, not her jewellery.
    The jewellery (ornaments) enhance the beauty, but it is not the factor that makes you notice them.
  11. davidquinlan

    davidquinlan Member

    If that's the case, my Haydn needs to spend some time down at the gym and then the beauty parlour!! :)
  12. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    Am I the only person sufficiently lazy to think: "Do the trills whichever way is easier ... ('cos that way they'll sound better)" ?


  13. six pints

    six pints Active Member

    i was always told to start on the upper note as well, and all the recordings ive heard are too.
  14. fitzy

    fitzy Active Member

    I'll guess that the concensus is to start the trill from the upper note. I have always played it that way but I had someone question it the other day. Thanks for all your help.
  15. T-Horn

    T-Horn Member

    Baroque trills went from the note above because it was easier to produce trills from above on natural brass instruments and so other instruments imitated this. The Haydn, written for a trumpet with keys, should probably be played from the note in keeping with the new instrument and changing trend of the time. It's personal choice as none of us were there at the time but I see no call for the appogiatura that a trill from above would create in this passage. It's decoration of the note written, and so it's the G that needs emphasising.
  16. Brian Bowen

    Brian Bowen Active Member

    In his preface to the Eulenburg edition of 1979, Stefan de Haan mentions that "they have been variously interpreted as an indication for a vibrato possibly produced by one of the keys on Weidinger's trumpet [for whom the work was written], a trill without a turn or, more likely, an intensification of the expression. The most plausible explanation seems to be that these wavy lines indicate an improvised extension of the note, upwards and downwards, eventually developing into a trill. An example of how this can be done appears in the first movement (bars 293-6)."
  17. Andy_Euph

    Andy_Euph Active Member

    Classical way of playing trills i'm sure is to start on the note above, eg G to F (f being the beat note) then trill F up to G...just my thoughts
  18. ComposerAndy

    ComposerAndy Member

    Depends how they're approached.