handicaped contesting

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by Forest Gump, Jun 19, 2006.

  1. Forest Gump

    Forest Gump Member

    this is just an idea but could you use a handicap system for contesting,like golf.
    you could open the contest to all sections but give forth section band a 16 pionts start,third section a 12 point start,second section a 8 point advantage and first section 4 points.champion section bands would with no points.
    this may make a more intresting event for all the bands compeating, lower section bands would have the chance to play side by side with the big boy's.:confused: :confused: :confused:
  2. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    Couldn't do that really I'm afraid. Golf handicaps are earned and measured against a set of objective measurements - across the board i.e. for all players. There is no way you can do this given the current entirely subjective nature of adjudication.

    This would also mean few Championship section bands would compete against 4th section bands knowing they had a 16 point advantage at the start. When have you ever seen a 16 point margin between bands...?
  3. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    The 60s, when bands were divided by margins of several (sometimes 10s) of points....and you didn't get 199.99999 when you won?

    Actually, I didn't personally see it - only when I was browsing 4BRs results archive in a moment of dullness :D
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2006
  4. Charmed

    Charmed Active Member

    Ah but.....

    Is that fair to the bottom bands in the Championship? Some of the 1st section top bands are well able to compete on a level pegging with the bottom of the Championship section bands!
  5. Laserbeam bass

    Laserbeam bass Active Member

    Rather than use a handicap system, how about having a match system where each band is paired against another of a similar standard. This would negate the need for a head start in points, and would allow better than average 1st section bands (to use the example provided) to be matched with a middling Champ section band. Once each pairing has achieved a winner. The bands then battle it out for the outright prize. Each adjudicator would have in his remit, the ability to award points based on a performance out of a set score in relation to the level of the band. This would require open adjudication, but I don't see that as a major issue. So for example a 4th section band would not be looking to win the competition with 175 points out of 200 just because they are a 4th section band, but will be marked on their ability as a 4th section band. If they achieve the criteria, then why shouldn't they be awarded 197 / 200 like in the C section. This would make it a pound for pound fight.
  6. davidsait

    davidsait Member

    This has actually been done.

    There was an entertainment contest in North Hertfordshire for a couple of years called "The Triton" which used this sort of system (alongside open adjudication!).

    It was a while ago so I don't remember much about it, except that only 5 or 6 bands played I think, and the results came out exactly as you'd expect - Championship band (WGC I think) at the top, down to 4th section/unregisterded (Letchworth I think) at the bottom!

    Perhaps there's a chance someone else here might remember this contest. I think it was held in Hitchin Town Hall one year, and Plinston Hall the next.
  7. mehans

    mehans New Member

    This is a system used in the Norwegian entertainment contest KnallBrass held in Stavanger in June every year. The bands getting points after witch section they played in the national champs, like top section bands getting 0 starting points, first section bands getting 5 staring points, second 10, third 15 and fourth 20 starting points. Bands not taking part in the Champs are given starting points after former merits and knowledge by the organizers.

    The results are made up by the points for playing (max 100), entertainment value (max 20) and the starting points. This can give every band a really good opportunity to win ore at least make the prices. Like this year when a band normally not contesting ended up in second place – well in front of bands well up in the sections. There are also given prices to the best performance, the program and best soloist. This year the band with the best playing ended up as fifth over all. Check the contests webpage http://www.gjallarhorn.no/KnallBrass/Historie.asp to see the system – it’s in Norwegian but the points make the system clear.

    The Beaumaris Band from Wales played a gala concert at the contest in 2005 and experienced the contest. I’m sure there would be players from this band that can tell about the contest and their impressions of such a way of running a contest.
  8. Forest Gump

    Forest Gump Member


    i actually played in a entertainment contest with this system it was organised by severn sound {glos radio station},it was recorded and played on the radio, the only down side was that the top section bands won as i remember {it was in the eighty's},but i think it's a good idea though.
  9. Bayerd

    Bayerd Active Member

    Maybe I'm missing the point here, but isn't contesting all about finding out who the best band is, not giving also rans a head start?
  10. Craigsav83

    Craigsav83 Active Member

    I can see the point, but is the point of contests that are open to all sections not to try and compete with bands in higher sections? It is possible for 4th section bands to beat 2nd section bands without the need for a handicap.
  11. nickjones

    nickjones Active Member

    The Knall festival works really well and it's a great experience for 2nd / 3rd section bands to compete against higher section competition , it's a brilliant atmosphere too , quite informal and a very entertaining. well worth considering as it's a great idea...
  12. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    Only drawback to this is a scratch band being formed to take advantage of the system. It could only work with bands that have been established for at least a few years.
  13. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    Seems to have worked very well in golf for many years and though it is flawed, and I don't have the answers, it seems to be a fabulous way to get not-so-experienced bands and their players up against the big boys.

    Interesting if nothing else. So, yes, I guess you were missing the point of this thread.
  14. i dont get it..... but if a really good band was 15 points ahead of a not so good band....... and then the weaker band were awarded 16 of these "handicap" points then they would be ahead of the better band not because of their playing but because they got extra points for being lower down in the sections......... i don't get that
  15. starperformer

    starperformer Member

    golf...golf...golf... don't get me started. the analogy is not a close one because scores in golf give a good indication of how good you are - unlike brass band contesting.

    anyway, the main problem is that golf runs a system that rewards mediocrity - big time. the whole idea of the golfing bandwagon is to sell as much flash gear as possible to middle aged fat cats, not to see who has the highest quality, most aesthetic game. this is really not a road to go down for any serious contest.

    we already have a system that gives too many prizes to rubbish bands - especially scratch(ish)/newly formed/phoenix-from-the-flames ones.

    the other problem (which applies to both contesting and golf) is that the great and the rubbish can already play alongside each other - only problem is, that the rubbish will often look for any old argument to avoid the basic fact that if they practiced harder, they would compete. in both games you can get pretty close to the top of the tree (at least on a local scale) with no natural talent whatsoever, just a lot of hard work. which rends to really irk the lazy, and those who feel that they should win prizes every so often for turning up.
  16. BrotherBone

    BrotherBone Member

    putting golf aside... compare the sections of the brass banding world with the sections of the footballing league.....

    Why dont we merge all the leagues into one giant league and give Grimbsy Town 5 goals head start against Chelsea or Arsenal... :-?
  17. Although I don't compete in contests (I used to), I like the idea of entertainment points. The sound quality could be marked, but only as part of an 'entertainment' score for the overall result. This would encourage bands to become more exciting performers in concerts. It would also liven up the contesting scene, and attract more bands into it. Just a wild thought!