Flutter Tongue

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by Farmer Giles, Nov 13, 2003.

  1. Farmer Giles

    Farmer Giles Member

    Hi all

    this has probably been asked loads of times already, so my apologies !

    i cannot flutter tongue, but i need to be able to do so.

    i can "roll my 'r's" (sometimes) but i can't seem to do so with the mouthpiece in place.

    i am a cornet player (well, sort of!) if that makes any difference.

    Many thanks for your help

    FG
     
  2. neiltwist

    neiltwist Active Member

    hmmm, not sure that there's anything you can do if it's genetic, but it is important to have a relaxed tongue, and fast airflow. don't know if this helps.
     
  3. leisa

    leisa Active Member

    i cant flutter tounge and i cant roll my r's either
     
  4. Seedhouse

    Seedhouse Active Member

    I can't flutter tongue, but someone emailed someone else on a mailing group i'm on this a while ago to try and help him:

    there are two ways of flutter tonguing, one is using your tongue and creating a rolling r effect. some people cannot do this, apparently it is a gene that you either have or don't have.
    however, there is a second way. by the way you were describing it, it sounds a lot more complicated than it need be. in essence all you need to do is make a gargling sound in the back of your throat. you can practice what this is like by gargling water and than trying it on your flute, minus the water of course
    all it takes is some time and practice, try working in the upper second register, i think that is the easiest area for those notes to speak when learning flutter tonguing. then proceed down in a chromatic scale slurring the notes together, like i said before for me personally i've never seen an articulated flutter tongue passage, but perhaps there is. but take it slowly in steps and remember, as you get lower in the register the notes may not speak as clearly.
    good luck!


    this may also help:
    [taking the flat area just underneath the tip of your tongue, place it flat
    against the roof of your mouth just above and behind my top teeth and then blow. The air flow causes the tongue to separate from the roof of the mouth and the muscles cause the tongue to be restored to the roof. If you hold your tongue lightly and not with great force, this back-and-forth high speed to-ing and fro-ing action results in a flutter from the airflow interaction.]
    ...the airflow is drastically altered by this fluttering and most people in
    an effort to cope with the lack of air support either use more mpc pressure
    and/or tongue arch [stiffness] in an effort to close off the aperture a
    little more to aid them in the range ascension. Both actions carried to their
    extreme stop the flutter/close off the sound totally.


    Good luck!
     
  5. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    If you can roll your rs, you can fluttertongue... It's just a question of getting the action and the airstream through the aperture going at the same time. I used not to be able to roll my rs, but learnt to by beginning with the back-of-the-throat 'growl', which is essentially a 'roughening' of the airstream, caused, I think, by a slight (and only a slight) tightening of the throat, which I found came more naturally. Without the instrument on, it's a sort of pleasantly phlegmy hacking noise. If you can do this successfully, lifting the front end of your tongue as you do it should cause it to reliably 'roll' even when you're playing. From there you can work on rolling the front without growling. Failing that, very few people in brass bands will complain if you 'growl' when it says 'flutter'.

    Caveat: I have had my tonsils out - does this technique work for those with tonsils intact?

    Dave
     
  6. isn't the 'growl' a bit vomit-inducing tho...!?
     
  7. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Yeah. Perhaps it's suspicious that it came so easily.

    Dave
     
  8. iggmeister

    iggmeister Member

    growling is different to flutter tonguing. Jazzers do growling quite a lot by literally going 'grrr' at the same time as playing.

    Fluttering is one of those silly things that is so simple if you can do it but impossible if you cant.

    Igg
     
  9. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Mmm, yes; I was saying that I worked from one to the other, and found it helpful to have done so. I was imagining 'rolling it forward along my tongue' as I did so, if that helps anyone.

    Dave
     
  10. BigHorn

    BigHorn Active Member

    This is one of those things that you can do easily or really really struggle. I personally have no problem it just comes natural.
    Its all about being able to totally relax the tip of your tongue so that the air flow over it makes it flutter like a flag. (wow - thats why they call it flutter tonguing). However the base of the tongue is not relaxed as it is used to hold the tip in the right place. Its this differential muscle control that is so hard if it doesn't come naturally. Its like moving your ears or raising one eyebrow some can some can't.

    However I think some people naturally can - but try to hard. If you played army as a kid and made machine gun sounds then you can flutter tongue because thats exactly what you were doing. (not if you were one of the wimps who went ahahahaha but one who went Drrrrr Drrrrr Drrrr )

    Standard advice is to hold the tongue on the roof of the mouth behind the teeth but I think this makes it harder. Personally I find the further back on the roof your mouth you rest your tongue the easier it is.
     
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  12. Vickitorious

    Vickitorious Active Member

    If you rest your tongue on the back of your teeth and blow it just happens well...... :? I can sort of do it but i can't because it makes me laugh because my eyes shake hehe :lol: :shock: :roll:
     
  13. Seedhouse

    Seedhouse Active Member

    Phew, thought I was the only one who's eyes went weird when I tried! Woohoo, i'm not alone! :lol:
     
  14. Euph-Bari

    Euph-Bari Active Member

    i kinda guessed what flutter tounging was and how to do it - from reading this i was right :eek:
     
  15. Emb_Enh

    Emb_Enh Member

    Mr.Seedhouse has used part of my article on flutter tonguing...here is the whole thing from my book...

    Mpc pressure / flutter tongue / tongue arch .....

    If you use too much pressure as you go higher we all know that this tends to close off the lip vibrations and the sound stops. It is much harder to ascend the register whilst flutter tonguing because with the tongue as mentioned before in it's [main] flutter postion..... ie:

    [taking the flat area just underneath the tip of your tongue, place it flat against the roof of your mouth just above and behind my top teeth and then blow. The air flow causes the tongue to separate from the roof of the mouth and the muscles cause the tongue to be restored to the roof. If you hold your tongue lightly and not with great force, this back-and-forth high speed to-ing and fro-ing action results in a flutter from the airflow interaction.]

    ...the airflow is drastically altered by this fluttering and most people in an effort to cope with the lack of air support either use more mpc pressure and/or tongue arch [stiffness] in an effort to close off the aperture a little more to aid them in the range ascension. Both actions carried to their extreme stop the flutter/close off the sound totally.

    If your lips are "highly vibratory" from the proper practice, they will be less inclined to close off on ascending the register with or without the flutter tongue action.

    It is also advisable to be able to turn the flutter on and off at will in the middle of a phrase. It is better than than developing a chop set specially for fluttering [some people do this] which is either on, or off, and consequentially less usable.

    I have a recording on demo CD [50 trax] which comes FREE with
    EMBOUCHURE ENHANCEMENT BOOK 2 / 15 quid a flutter tongue by me from G on top of the staff up to High E + also past High E on up to double Bb.
     
  16. BeatTheSheep

    BeatTheSheep Member

    You must be popular with the ladies :twisted:
     
  17. Seedhouse

    Seedhouse Active Member

    Did I!? :?
    I just searched google for "learning how to do flutter tonguing" and it came up with sites, I randomly chose two and pasted what they said. I can assure you that one of the site's I went on wasn't yours, so someone else must be pinching your info! one was a horn player's site, and another a brass band mailing list.
    I didn't realise, sorry!
     
  18. Amelia Bedilia

    Amelia Bedilia New Member

    I've heard it said that you can either flutter or growl, but few people can do both. Can any of you do both? I can flutter but can't growl.
     
  19. lynchie

    lynchie Active Member

    I've been having trouble fluttering above an E, but I think I'm doing what Emb_Enh was saying with the tongue arching thing closing off my aperture... so, how do I fix it?
     
  20. Max

    Max Member

    Going back to the biology class I remember that the genetic make up of a person means that they have one several types of tongue.

    This explains why some people:

    can roll their tongue and some cannot

    can taste asprin and some cannot

    can roll their tongue and taste asprin

    cannot roll their tongue and cannot taste asprin

    and presumably why some can flutter and some cannot!
     
  21. neiltwist

    neiltwist Active Member

    I can both flutter and growl. sorry.
     
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