Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by Corporal Jones, Mar 13, 2009.

  1. Corporal Jones

    Corporal Jones New Member

    Hi all,I have found this piece hidden in our band cupboard,but is missing the score,Solo cornet and Repiano parts.Everything else is there except those.
    Please could someone out there supply me with a copy of the Solo and Rep cornet parts as I would love to get this famous piece up and running
    If my heroic rescuer is out there,PM me and I'll send you my details.

  2. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    Best to contact R. Smith & Co. and obtain the missing items legitimately ...
  3. James Yelland

    James Yelland Active Member

    Yes, if I was a music publisher or other copyright holder, I think I might be monitoring this website quite carefully and making a note of individuals and bands making requests like this one. You never know when a rep from the PRS might be making a visit to your bandroom.....
  4. Jack Stout

    Jack Stout Member

    Big Brother!

    The last couple of posts have been quick to jump on Corporal Jones's case over what is perfectly resonable request. There may well be a band or an individual out there with spare parts that they would be willing to send on. That is perfectly legal and nothing to do with R. Smith and Co. or any other publisher. Photocopying parts or charging for them is a whole other matter...

    Cut Corporal Jones some slack, it seems some people have more energy to be critical than helpfull.
  5. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry, I don't see in what way my suggestion is not helpful? R. Smith & Co. are the publishers of Eric Ball's "Festival Music", and (I am reasonably certain) it is still in print. I have always found Smiths to be very helpful when it comes to supplying missing parts at a reasonable cost. I would have thought that contacting them is the easiest way to go. How is that not helpful?
  6. brassbandmaestro

    brassbandmaestro Active Member

    Brass band musicians are renowned for their helpfulness too!
  7. James Yelland

    James Yelland Active Member

    Yes, of course Corporal Jones might be soliciting entirely legitimate copies of the music, and I for one am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I only made my comment because in the past there have been numerous requests for music on this forum which have made it quite clear that non-legal copies of sheet music were being sought.

    I've re-read my own post and can't see anything in it which could be construed as 'critical', to use one of your words. I just thought it would be 'helpful', to use your other word, to remind people that one has to be a bit careful about what one accepts from others so that one doesn't fall foul of the law.
  8. brasscrest

    brasscrest Active Member

    Actually, "sending on" spare parts is also a probable copyright violation. Lending copies of music without permission of the copyright holder is not legal in many situations, because one of the main purposes of copyright is to protect the owner's financial interest in controlling the distribution of their works.

    The proper way to obtain these parts is to contact the publisher and obtain legal copies from them.
  9. andywooler

    andywooler Supporting Member

    In the case where a set has been purchased and there is no specific restriction on that then I don't believe you are correct in this.
  10. iancwilx

    iancwilx Well-Known Member

    There's a lot of 'em about !!

    - Wilkie
  11. brasscrest

    brasscrest Active Member

    From the UK Intellectual Property Office web site:
    (emphasis in original)

    You can view the page here:
  12. andywooler

    andywooler Supporting Member

    "renting or lending copies of the work " is what is stated in those links - so in your interpretation, a printed original is a copy?

    Time for Phil to add a publishers perspective!

    Plus this is also on the same page:
    "performing, showing or playing the work in public." - clearly not what it appears to say either.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2009
  13. brasscrest

    brasscrest Active Member

    Yes. In my interpretation, a printed original is a "copy". The term "original" is really inaccurate. What most people mean by that, when talking about published works, is "purchased copies".

    Letting someone else use your purchased copies in lieu of that person purchasing their own infringes the copyright owner's economic rights.

    In terms of public performance, copyright owners have the right to prohibit public performances and also to charge a royalty for such performances. This is exactly why organizations such as BMI and ASCAP exist - to provide a clearing mechanism for such rights and a way for their members to be paid without the member having to individually track down each occurrence.
  14. andywooler

    andywooler Supporting Member

    But in this case haven't - that has to be made explicit on the work if it is sold
    Which they will collect in the case of a performance here with a borrowed 2nd cornet part.

    When I hire orchestral music from B&H, they are explicit as to what can be done with it - for instance, the contract states no recordings can be made.
    If you look inside any book published in the UK it will state the following:

    "This book may not be lent .........in any form or binding other than which it is published......" In other words, lending is ok as long as you don't alter it.

    All bands borrow a 2nd score fvor the adjudicator at own choice contests - in your interpretation, we are all infringing copyright law.
  15. Corporal Jones

    Corporal Jones New Member

    There is a gentleman who suggested I contact R Smith and Co about procuring the missing parts.It is a good idea and i shall be doing so.
    To all others who have taken the time to read this and made some valuable comments thank you for your help and time.
    The corporal
  16. Jack Stout

    Jack Stout Member


    I think you will find, that unless stated at the point of purchase, that the purchaser takes physical ownership of the piece of paper and thus if that person decides to give it to someone else then he is perfectly entitled to do so. That is why at the point of purchase that 'copying, duplication of any sort, re-sale or hire of these parts is illegal' is included on the print. If you were not allowed to give it away then I can assure you that publishers would include the rider that 'you are not allowed to give the parts away'. If they did, every band that calls it a day or bands that decide to downsize their library would have to have a ceremonial burning, thus preventing the composer from receiving royalties on any future performances by another group.
  17. brasscrest

    brasscrest Active Member

    Two points: in that case, you are leasing the parts, not purchasing them. And, just because sometimes owners explicitly state their rights does not mean that they do not have those rights if they do not explicitly state them. It also may be that B&H's contract language looks back to time (not so long ago) when copyright and other intellectual property rights were not so heavily protected by law.

    Establishing conditions for lending does not mean that anyone can lend. It simply means that if you do lend (with permission), you cannot alter the work. I also note that in the UK there is a statutory scheme where libraries pay royalties to copyright owners based on the number of times an item has been lent, which preserves the economic rights of the copyright holders.

    Yes. Because you didn't purchase the extra score. If you need two copies, then the economic rights of the owner mean that you have to pay for the second copy.

    I agree that my interpretation is quite narrow, and not very practical.

    I'm not saying that I think that all of this is a good idea. I believe that copyright law as it has developed over the last twenty or so years has gone too far in the direction of the copyright owners, and some of this makes little practical sense (like your last example). It's unlikely that any publisher would actually attempt to prosecute in any of these cases, but again, that doesn't mean that they couldn't, just that it is not economically feasible to take someone to court over a small amount like a couple of spare parts.
  18. johnmartin

    johnmartin Active Member

    Isn't copyright fun; and the law an ass.

    Corporal, hope you get the (legitimate) parts to complete your set of one of my favourite works.
  19. andywooler

    andywooler Supporting Member

    I agree that my interpretation is quite narrow, and not very practical.
    [/quote]Unles you are a high court judge I suspect the chances of this band being pursued for lending a couple of parts is somewhat remote.

    As for the earlier post who suggested the PRS may come calling, they have no role to play in this - they are about Performing Rights, not copyright issues. Unles of course the borrowed parts are played in licenced(PRS Licence) premises and not declared on the return ;)
  20. James Yelland

    James Yelland Active Member

    I refer you to my further comments in post number 7, which was posted before your comments, above.

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