Ernest Lomas's vitriolic comment on 4br

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by JR, Dec 7, 2004.

  1. JR

    JR Member

    Mr Lomas seems to have been roundly condemned for his comments regarding international borrowed players and the registry etc
    He may have got a bit flustered and i don't know if he has any axe to grind but surely he raises some interesting points namely:

    The rules on borrowed players and transfers are much less stringent than they were a few years ago

    Is it acceptable for bands to be able to borrow from the very top echelons of banding? (the old Rochdale contest used to stipulate "no borrowing from Dyke, Brighouse, Faireys, Fodens etc...)

    Bands have started to take advantage of loopholes in the rules re foreign players e.g. those "registered" with top european or australasian outfits are being flown in for major contests

    Should the latter practice be outlawed by requiring an Aussie style 3 month residence rule? or unifying a European registry

    Just a few thoughts...

    john roberts
  2. rickshaw

    rickshaw Member

    In my opinion the relaxing of the registry rules is simply the registry and BFBB listening to what bands want and delivering.

    Mr Lomas's comments regarding the 2 borrowed players at the Scottish Open where clearly unfounded come the results. The 2 players concerned may have added to the performance but in such a strong field wouldn't of made that much difference (no offence to the players).
    As for 'international' players I also do not see this as an issue. Surely it is just the same as the very common practice of registering a professional brass / percussion player who normally does not play in brass bands for 1 contest. Isn't this effectivley borrowing a player?

    I would much rather see a band go on stage at a contest with borrowed players r(and if you have to borrow then why not the best) than have to withdraw from the contest.
  3. fitzy

    fitzy Active Member

    He also did not research his comments very well when he mentioned Australia as a destination for "jet-setting" dep players. It is strictly against the rules here. It happens in NZ (I have been over there as a guest player) but not here.
  4. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    I think a player should only be registered with one band, whether it is in England or the US or New Zealand, etc...

    If the player registers with another band from another country for one contest...they should not be allowed to return to their old band in their old country for 6 months...just like the British rules.
  5. rickshaw

    rickshaw Member

    To police this properly would mean an international registry.
    I really don't think the British Registry is ready for that, it still exists in a world of rubber stamps, passport photo's and pritt stick! Give them chance they have just worked out how to use a FAX machine !!
  6. fitzy

    fitzy Active Member

    Or even the internet? (Well maybe a few years away ;)) It's the same down here.
  7. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    An important factor to consider what would happen if no deps were allowed! How many bands would not be able to compete at certain contests due to the unavailability of players?

    It also seems to be a free-for-all in some areas of the UK for guesting players from higher sections which might give some advantage to a band contesting. I thought the ruling was that for lower sections the guest must be from a band that is in the same section or lower?

    On the International front, are the players actually signed or are they registered as guests? If they are signed as a fully paid up member for a single contest then this must be closely looked at. There must be something that must relate to the player's registry status with his own band that stops him/her immediately being re-instated? :-?
  8. rickshaw

    rickshaw Member

    The rules clearly state that you can only borrow from bands of the same section or below. I can only speak for the north west area but I do not know of any situation where this has been overlooked.

    The only time this may appear to be overlooked is when your national and local gradings are different as there is no 1st section locally. This may then allow a 1st section bands to borrow from the top section. All that is happening is the local grading is been taken into account. Which is quiet acceptable as when they compete locally they are playing against Champ section bands anyway.
  9. stevetrom

    stevetrom Well-Known Member

    We are a 1st section band and almost always borrow players for contests other than the area, we also have a few registered players who only do the area. I am sure we are not alone in this, if no borrowed players were allowed i doubt we would be able to attend many contests.
  10. mikelyons

    mikelyons Supporting Member

    Are we returning to the old discussion of the morality that is in force when bands borrow players?

    To be honest, my personal integrity is much more important to me than winning a contest. I would rather not go, or go under-strength, than cheat.
  11. rickshaw

    rickshaw Member

    It is not about winning it is about pride in performance, you are there to entertain.

    Such a black and white view that borrowing is cheating is somewhat naive.

    You should take into consideration the reason the player has been borrowed, as simple scenario a player has a death in the family and the funeral clashes with the contest, clearly they cannot attend the contest. As it is an entertainment contest the band would rather arrange there own dep rather use from the band before so at leat the player can get to the odd practice.

    If all bands who where short of players decided not to enter contests you would see some of the smaller local contest disapear due to 'lack of interest'.
  12. MRSH

    MRSH Supporting Member

    As far as I am aware, as I left the committee just over a year ago, rules for contests run by Southern Counties ABA are that you can borrow a total of four players, two of which can be from bands graded one section above and two can be from bands graded the same section or below your own band.

    As far as entertainment contests are concerned the rules state that, if there is a soloist prize, a 'borrowed' player cannot be the soloist.

    I think these two rules are fair and just. It certainly has transformed some bands in the south as far as entering contests are concerned. Bands are now finding that with these relaxed rules they can contest when before they wouldn't even dream of it.

    I do find it a bit peculiar though that some people transfer to a band just for a contest then transfer back to the band they came from - obviously obeying the 6 month rule (if in force) :D:D
  13. John Brooks

    John Brooks Well-Known Member

    What is best for the movement? From the preceding comments it would appear that certain contests and bands might suffer if deps. were not allowed. I don't know how it could be controlled, but I believe that using deps. for legitimate situations (eg: sickness, death in family, vacancy in the band and no current player for the part, genuine unavailability of current player etc.) should be allowed and be as flexible as necessary. I would attempt to ban (and this is where control probably gets difficult) situations where a current player is displaced by a dep. for no so called legitimate reason.

    Should the rules be more stringent for higher sections and less so for the lower?

    It appears that Mr. Lomas had no problem with the much publicized dep. situation with Kerwintootle and Black Dyke. Dyke went for the best available and rightly so. Perhaps that is evidence that Mr. Lomas did indeed have an axe to grind on this ocassion.
  14. mikelyons

    mikelyons Supporting Member

    Or maybe we would hear bands at their true standard, rather than their artificially enhanced standard?
  15. Dave Payn

    Dave Payn Active Member

    if it means keeping a local contest going (a la SCABA at Folkestone, Hove and Crawley), I'd rather borrow players. 'Borrowing' doesn't necessarily mean 'cheating'. I depped for Yiewsley and West Drayton at the SCABA Folkestone contest in October on percussion and I'm certainly no expert percussionist! (Trust me!) I've dabbled in it, and for that, I was asked. YWD could have quite easily got a trained percussionist if they wanted, but they know me and I know them. I dare say it as was much 'social' as anything else! In the end, it rather depends on how seriously you take the 'competitiveness' of it all.
  16. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    Just to play devils advocate...Maybe their 'true' standard is with deps? Our band typically has about three deps for a concert as not everybody can make them all.
  17. stevetrom

    stevetrom Well-Known Member

    So how good would a local contest be if bands turned up with 15/16 players ?

    There is usually little (if any) money at stake at local contests so what is the problem?

    The Areas is where we get to hear bands at their true level, other contest are (mostly) about enjoying banding and contesting.

  18. This was the case (6 month rule) but looking at the most recent release of the rules (dated Jan 04) it makes no mention of the 6 month rule.

    I'm about to email them o try and get some clarification on it.

    My mistake I was looking in the (BFBB) National Rules instead if the British Brass Band Registry rules!

    Six month rule does apply.
  19. JR

    JR Member

    Does this affect Raf Van Looveren then? if he turns out again for Sellers at the area he will not be allowed to play for Willebroek at the European...

    john r
  20. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    Whether he will or not...I don't know, but If he does play with Sellers at the Areas, I don't think he should be allowed to play for Willebroek at Europe!!!

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